Should technology not take a lot longer to research?

I don't mean the first tiers of technology that get you up on your feet, like the second bayonet tech that keeps it permanently on your gun but still able to fire, the one that allows you to build tenanted farms, canister shot, etc, but after that, does anybody else think technology should take a hell of a lot longer to research?

I say this because in every game i've played so far, by the time it's 1723 or so on, not even a quarter of the way into a campaign, i've already researched socket bayonet, new model bayonet drill (NMBD), explosive and carcass shot, 2nd, 3rd and 4th rate ships, the highest tier of farms, the final weaver and/or metalworking buildings, my armies are as professional and advanced as they can be, etc.

And then, by 1730, there's no point me even having schools anymore... i have quicklime shells, light infantry, barrel rifling, rocket ships, rocket troops, i have everything.

Now i know you could say... well... just don't research them, but then that's putting myself at a massive advantage, which i already do by not using full stacks or mass artillery, so my enemy always outnumbers me at least 2-1, and if they also have fire-by-rank, socket bayonet and NMBD, i'd never win a battle.

Just saying, i think this is one for modders to look at in the future. Rome had the same problem with buildings, where the game started at 270BC and by 250 you had the Marian reforms and the top tier of barracks and roads and aquaducts.

What say you? Yay? Nay?

It's basically a trade off between what's more historically accurate and what's fun. Most gamers don't want to wait 20 (+) turns to finally finish their research, even though we can all agree that nations didn't advance this quickly in real life.

:balloon2:

Also, the later tiers take much longer to research, even with modern universities an the like. If you don't go crazy on schools (3-5 max.) you can't really finish the tech tree until ~1770 or even later. Which sounds OK to me, since I want to see stuff I researched in action for a couple of years.

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Originally Posted by Darth Venom

Also, the later tiers take much longer to research, even with modern universities an the like. If you don't go crazy on schools (3-5 max.) you can't really finish the tech tree until ~1770 or even later. Which sounds OK to me, since I want to see stuff I researched in action for a couple of years.

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Maybe I am doing something wrong (with 5 universities in England), but it seems, I wouldn't be able to research the top tier items until 1770 or so either (it's 1755 in the game now). So, it seems quite fair to me gameplay wise that the player gets a couple decades to 'try' the new stuff out. Otherwise: what would be the point of getting the ability to build 1st rates by 1790, then building the top tier dockyard, then - the ships themselves... No time left to play with them at all...

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Originally Posted by Dayve

Now i know you could say... well... just don't research them, but then that's putting myself at a massive advantage, which i already do by not using full stacks or mass artillery, so my enemy always outnumbers me at least 2-1, and if they also have fire-by-rank, socket bayonet and NMBD, i'd never win a battle.

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Well you could keep yourself limited in schools and send gentlemen off to do other things like gutting enemy gentlemen for fun. Then you can drop some of your own metagaming rules. Adapt and find a nice happy middleground.

For someone who complains about people complaining about being able to abuse game mechanics, I find it ironic that you're complaining about being able to outtech the AIs. I mean, the AIs as far as I can tell don't really prioritize technology or anything in particular so you're not going to get a competent research opponent unless you limit yourself in schools. And even then, you can just beeline to the techs you want.

Maybe when we finally get multiplayer campaign huh?

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Well you could keep yourself limited in schools and send gentlemen off to do other things like gutting enemy gentlemen for fun. Then you can drop some of your own metagaming rules. Adapt and find a nice happy middleground.

For someone who complains about people complaining about being able to abuse game mechanics, I find it ironic that you're complaining about being able to outtech the AIs. I mean, the AIs as far as I can tell don't really prioritize technology or anything in particular so you're not going to get a competent research opponent unless you limit yourself in schools. And even then, you can just beeline to the techs you want.

Maybe when we finally get multiplayer campaign huh?

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Actually (again, I should note: maybe I am doing something wrong), playing as British and having 5 universities (with 2 to 3 gentlemen in each) in England + a few that I gained in 13 colonies once they joined I find that Maratha AI out-techs me in 1750... Interestingly enough: they only have a couple universities in their provinces...

Too many schools and not enough gentlemen to go around = :thumbsdown:

I limit my schools to 4 or 5 and they are all packed.

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Originally Posted by Dayve

I don't mean the first tiers of technology that get you up on your feet, like the second bayonet tech that keeps it permanently on your gun but still able to fire, the one that allows you to build tenanted farms, canister shot, etc, but after that, does anybody else think technology should take a hell of a lot longer to research?

I say this because in every game i've played so far, by the time it's 1723 or so on, not even a quarter of the way into a campaign, i've already researched socket bayonet, new model bayonet drill (NMBD), explosive and carcass shot, 2nd, 3rd and 4th rate ships, the highest tier of farms, the final weaver and/or metalworking buildings, my armies are as professional and advanced as they can be, etc.

And then, by 1730, there's no point me even having schools anymore... i have quicklime shells, light infantry, barrel rifling, rocket ships, rocket troops, i have everything.

Now i know you could say... well... just don't research them, but then that's putting myself at a massive advantage, which i already do by not using full stacks or mass artillery, so my enemy always outnumbers me at least 2-1, and if they also have fire-by-rank, socket bayonet and NMBD, i'd never win a battle.

Just saying, i think this is one for modders to look at in the future. Rome had the same problem with buildings, where the game started at 270BC and by 250 you had the Marian reforms and the top tier of barracks and roads and aquaducts.

What say you? Yay? Nay?

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The tech tree is actually unrealistically slow in granting some technologies and too fast in others .
Not to mention some complete impossibilities such as steam war ships which didn't even exist in the 18th century , especially the 3 rate sized blockships modeled in game which were only built in the 1830s and don't get me started on rifled cannons !




2 gripes I'd like to mention {I have more , trust me} :
1.)
By 1700 , 4th rates as modeled in game were the standard Ship of the Line and quite common {the United Provinces controlled the channel with them and they had at least one if not 2 -the Eendracht may even have qualifyed at the time as a 3rd rate by mid 18th century standards- at the Battle of Lowestoft in 1665} , 3rd Rates were in widespread service as flagships and were starting to superceed the 4th rates as the standard , 2nd rates and 1st rates {though by late 18th century standards , these were somewhat weak examples , they were still of atleast 3rd to 2nd rate in combat power !} were in rare service .

Reasearch shouldn't be required to build ships of up to 3rd rate {with the possible exception of the Russians , Marthras and Ottomans and certainly the Pirates , Crimea , Morocco and Barbery States all of whom except for the Pirates should still be able to build up to 4th rates - the Pirates would have what they get now} provided they have the ports to build them .
Research should instead merely improve their performance , firepower , accuracy , reload times , hull strength {the classic and definitive Téméraire class was notably larger than the standard British 70 gun 3rd rates at the time and so the British copied them thus increasing the hull strength -in game terms- of their own standard 3rd rates for example} , lower costs and mabey faster build times all to more accuratly protray the naval development of the period .

A well thought out system could allow trading ports to build up to 4th or even 3rd rates {at the 2nd and 3rd tier respectivly} giving the Dutch the Naval power they historically possessed and again , research would simply improve the performance etc {also , cost differences should increase far more dramatically between classes ; genuine 1st rates were so hideously expensive that during the Napoleonic Wars no country had more than a handfull or so at any one time , but third rates were built in great numbers} .





2.)
Light Infantry Behaviour as modeled in game was actually already being used by many types of troops throughout the world . Rangers and all American Indians should have it from the beginning as should Pandurs for example .
All researching Light Infantry Doctrine should do is unlock the latter types of light infantry and reduce costs etc {also , build times for some units ... Rangers should probably take 2 turns to build until the doctrine is researched as it did take longer to find enough men with the skills and brains to opperate as rangers {as portrayed} than it did to find men whom could be taught to fight as line infantry .



3.) Gah !

Well, I like how you start the tech tree like that. What about the tiny standing armies you start out with? What about the undeveloped towns? If the game was like real life, there would be an obcene amount of armies and navies at your disposal, and you could just steamroll the entire map in 10 turns.

I just ended a game as Prussia in 1730 because i had rifling and great estates and i didn't see any point in playing anymore... and i only used 1 school up until 1710.

It's all fine and dandy saying simply don't research them, but researching is half the fun, and when my soldiers are using plug bayonet and i come across single state German nations using ring or socket, i have to research them to keep up... that's historically accurate, that's the way the world works, so if anything holding back on the research is even worse than going full steam and getting everything by 1730, at least for someone like me who likes to play as accurately as is possible.

Also... were plug bayonets not already invented at least half a century before this game starts?

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Originally Posted by Dayve

I just ended a game as Prussia in 1730 because i had rifling and great estates and i didn't see any point in playing anymore... and i only used 1 school up until 1710.

It's all fine and dandy saying simply don't research them, but researching is half the fun, and when my soldiers are using plug bayonet and i come across single state German nations using ring or socket, i have to research them to keep up... that's historically accurate, that's the way the world works, so if anything holding back on the research is even worse than going full steam and getting everything by 1730, at least for someone like me who likes to play as accurately as is possible.

Also... were plug bayonets not already invented at least half a century before this game starts?

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I am playing as Sweden and my research equals zero. Seriously, it takes me 10-15 turns per tech. I have built more schools etc, but its still a very, very slow progress. This might be because me investing almost all money into warfare (Sweden starts of with a lot of enemies, and playing on VH). But still, my country is backwards as hell.

I have just defeated Russia and forced them out of the war, gaining one of their regions and peace. Also, I have forced Denmark to retreat to Iceland, so I control the Scandinavian peninsula. Courland is destroyed by me, also. Now, having forced all my enemies out of what seems to have been Empires version of The Great Northern War, I am currently at war with my last foe. The prussians. Their technology and prestige is seven times my own. Still winning, ofcourse, due to my superior brain ;)

Use gentlemen in your schools, instead of dueling them to death. Also, absolute monarchies have worse research levels

Constitutional Monarchies have no bonuses

Republics have better research levels.

Upgrade your schools to get better research, but be wary of public order levels falling.

I would hate if it was longer. I'm always rolling my eyes when I'm checking the status because it seems I'm always waiting for something to finish so I can go clobber somebody with shiny new things.

Some technologies you are forced to research, such as plug bayonets, fire by rank, or the ability to build 3rd Rate equivalent ships [One thing to bear in mind, what constituted a 1st Rate in most navies in 1799 was much more powerful ship a than what would have been labled a 1st Rate in 1700, so while the terms there were powerful Ships of the Line in use at the game's starting point, one should not be able to build Victory style 1st Rates right off the bat], were already commonplace at the games start time; even rifling, while not yet embraced by the military, was already being used in hunting weapons and such by the early 1700s. Other techs, such as steamships or the more advanced artillery, were not adopted until after the Napoleonic Wars.

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Originally Posted by Dayve

I just ended a game as Prussia in 1730 because i had rifling and great estates and i didn't see any point in playing anymore... and i only used 1 school up until 1710.

It's all fine and dandy saying simply don't research them, but researching is half the fun, and when my soldiers are using plug bayonet and i come across single state German nations using ring or socket, i have to research them to keep up... that's historically accurate, that's the way the world works, so if anything holding back on the research is even worse than going full steam and getting everything by 1730, at least for someone like me who likes to play as accurately as is possible.

Also... were plug bayonets not already invented at least half a century before this game starts?

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Hmm. Could it be that research scales with the number of provinces (it is the case in a similar (on strategy map level) game - EU3)? the more provinces one has: the longer it takes... I had a feeling that my British research times went up considerably after the 'thirteen colonies' (actually 7) joined me. After that, my techs take 10-15 turns to finish even in schools stuffed with gentlemen + royal observatories, etc.

5-6 Gentlemen per school usually fix things up.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

5-6 Gentlemen per school usually fix things up.

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yeah, I usually do not have more than 3 per school. anyway, even though I have no universities in my indian terrotories (I destroyed them all) gentlemen continue to spawn there... interestingly enough, some of them are aged 60 at the time of the spawn. by the time I get them to England (that's where my 5 universities are), they're ready to 'kick the bucket'...

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Originally Posted by NimitsTexan

...
One thing to bear in mind, what constituted a 1st Rate in most navies in 1799 was much more powerful ship a than what would have been labled a 1st Rate in 1700, so while the terms there were powerful Ships of the Line in use at the game's starting point, one should not be able to build Victory style 1st Rates right off the bat...

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The best way to represent that development is not by denying the ability to even build {until later} the larger ships , but rather to use technology developments to enhance the vessels stats as naval technology is advanced with the stats beging at a point that reasonably approximates what the respective ships of each class were like in 1700 {this would probably only work if we can add hull strength to ships through tech developments to represent how each class grew in size and displacement , and even better if we can add to crew the same way} .

The tech tree definitly needs revision {badly !} and expansion {yet one more reason to "give it more work" such as in my naval proposals} .