Dramatic loss of FM experience following victory...???!!!

[Sorry I don't have any pics to supplement the text here...you'll have to take my word on this, but I swear it's true :yes:]

I had a very interesting experience during my v1.2 Baktrian campaign today. I'm steamrolling the Saka and I had a large stack with a very successful FM (S/C/V - U/O/L) who has multiple command stars and lots of bonuses in battle -- sorry I can't recall them all, but he's loaded with positive battle-related traits. Anyway, he leads his army into a lopsided battle against the Saka Faction Leader in the village of Chighu...I check out my guy just before the battle and note that he has experience level 9. Excellent cavalry charge mayhem is in order! He leads an agressive charge with another family member and a unit of prodromoi against two Saka cavalry units (Saka bodyguard cavalry and early Saka nobles) in the village square and is victorious -- he is personally responsible for 28 casualties while taking 14 to his own unit. A trio of pezhatairoi finish off the Faction Leader's armored nobles, and the village is now Baktrian.

I look at the details of the battle's aftermath, and am shocked to see that my FM has a reduction in experience of -8!!!! He leads his army to victory, occupies a Saka province, and takes out the Saka Faction Leader.

What gives??!! Any ideas?

What unit size are you playing at? It is probably because you lost a bunch of experienced bodyguards.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

What unit size are you playing at? It is probably because you lost a bunch of experienced bodyguards.

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I'm playing with Large unit size. My FM went into the battle with just under 40 horse and, as I said, lost 14. A fairly hefty set of casualties, to be sure, but didn't seem to be THAT bad!

All the experiences guys tend to be in the front rank since they do the most combat. Its a little bit silly but its how CA did it.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

All the experiences guys tend to be in the front rank since they do the most combat. Its a little bit silly but its how CA did it.

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Are you saying that change in a unit's experience is not just a function of the activity of the unit as a whole, but is instead at least partly determined by the activities of specific individuals within a unit?

I had this as bactria too. But in my case a newly adopted general had 9 Experience, which he lost in the first battle.
There is no explanation like he lost his most experienced men. Just doesnt work. Your general lost like one third of his men, but more than 85% of its experience. Doesnt work out mathematicly. Even if all your experienced ones died, you couldnt have made it to 9 gold chevs, if the rest would still be level 1.

There's a bug that causes generals to get 9 chevrons if they have 0 chevrons and get the starving trait, it gives them a -1 bodyguard valour which for some reason makes the experience level go past 0 and end up at level 9.
This might be what happened, never seen it change in the post battle screen before though.

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Originally Posted by bobbin

There's a bug that causes generals to get 9 chevrons if they have 0 chevrons and get the starving trait, it gives them a -1 bodyguard valour which for some reason makes the experience level go past 0 and end up at level 9.
This might be what happened, never seen it change in the post battle screen before though.

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Starving trait?

EDIT: Oh, nvm.

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Originally Posted by bobbin

There's a bug that causes generals to get 9 chevrons if they have 0 chevrons and get the starving trait, it gives them a -1 bodyguard valour which for some reason makes the experience level go past 0 and end up at level 9.
This might be what happened, never seen it change in the post battle screen before though.

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Interesting, bobbin...I do remember that he was in fact starving, so it looks like you may have nailed the explanation -- on the other hand, I'm pretty confident he had more than 0 chevrons as he already had 3 command stars by the time of the battle in question and had fought in more than a few previous engagements against the Saka.

An odd bug to be sure -- I assume it's been reported to the community at large?

I also experienced such a sudden loss of 8 or 9 exp several times - in all of these cases a very young general was involved. I just assumed that this is a bug (9 chevrons not due to several positive traits but just one negative trait which shifts experience below zero).

I think that command stars are not at all related to bodyguard valour (I am not sure, though).

As for the "unit experience", it is in fact an average experience of individual soldiers in a particular unit.

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Originally Posted by polehammer

As for the "unit experience", it is in fact an average experience of individual soldiers in a particular unit.

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Interesting info...do you have a "source" for this statement?

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Originally Posted by Tarkus

Interesting info...do you have a "source" for this statement?

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AFAIK, it's always been this way with unit experience in TW. The game calculates accumulated experience for each member of a unit, but presents this information as a mean average of all constituents. In a unit that apparently has exp 1, for example, this might just mean that most of the unit has exp 1, and the remainder (potentially as much as 49.9r%) has 0; although it's also fairly likely that a few soldiers will have exp 2 or better.

Units don't lose experience as a penalty for faring poorly in battle, they lose experience because so many of the veterans that were keeping the average up were lost relative to the greener troops. Similarly when reinforcing an experinced unit with fresh troops, you may see the rated exp decrease as you dilute the summed experience among more soldiers.

As for the experience - please see the thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=115098 where some examples of unit experience gains or losses are discussed in more detail.

Thanks to all for the info!

I once lost a Basileus playing as Makedonia, while besieging Amaseia. He charged at a last group of Akontistai and died from the damn impact! And he was the first to charge *sigh* I always use the "F" button before the impact after that battle!

Maion

A bummer indeed, Maion...what special ability are you triggering after the impact by using F?

I guess I've been really lucky throughout my play as I've never lost a FM in a similar manner, despite lots of opportunities.

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Originally Posted by Tarkus

A bummer indeed, Maion...what special ability are you triggering after the impact by using F?

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I know, scratching an old wound always hurts :sweatdrop: The "F" button is the rally button (as you must know), which basically makes the Strategos stop for a couple of seconds (to rally the troops) while the rest charge.

Maion

Of course...rally :oops:. I did know that, but I don't have experience with using it in that way. I only use it as a way to try and bring other routing troops back to the fold. Am I using this ability in the wrong way? I'll have to look into this...

Learn something new every day here on this forum, I do...

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Originally Posted by Tarkus

Of course...rally :oops:. I did know that, but I don't have experience with using it in that way. I only use it as a way to try and bring other routing troops back to the fold. Am I using this ability in the wrong way? I'll have to look into this...

Learn something new every day here on this forum, I do...

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Well, I haven't found it to be very effective when troops are routing actually. I use it mostly when I'm about to charge (gives some kind of an "epic" scene as well :beam:), or when I want to inspire my troops at some point in the battle where things are very tough.

Maion

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

I once lost a Basileus playing as Makedonia, while besieging Amaseia. He charged at a last group of Akontistai and died from the damn impact! And he was the first to charge *sigh* I always use the "F" button before the impact after that battle!

Maion

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I've run into that many times. Its made me wonder if the Town Square isn't enchanted by some aura of reflect FM.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Its made me wonder if the Town Square isn't enchanted by some aura of reflect FM.

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Hmm...
Me too, but it seems to apply to all charging cavalry, which often makes sieges much more costly to win than they otherwise would as your footsloggers seek to (very) slowly grind down the remaining, unbreakable, enemies accumulated there.