Question about Camillan/Plybian/Marian units

I have another question... I play Romani, the year is sth around 238 bc. My first cities started producing Polybian units, and their statistics are a bit lower than those of the Camillan units. It also seems that the Marian units are a bit weaker than the Polybian ones. I think that historically it should be the other way round: after Scipio's innovaions in the battle of Baecula the Roman Army was able to put the second punic war to a succesful end ("polybian" units after the battle of Baecula). After the reform of Gaius Marius the Romans defeated the Cimbrii and Teutones tribes - something that the pre-Marian "Polybian" units could not do.
So sholdn't it be the other way round, I mean shouldn't Marian units be the strongest and Camillan the weakest? Do I have a bug of some sort?

I know what you mean, and as it happens, the Roman units actually get weaker as time goes on. However, the difference in stats is really negligible and will only really be felt if two units with equal number and equal experience go head-to-head. Otherwise, once your Polybian units have gained some experience they should, for practical purposes be about as good as your Camillans. Also, there's more than just stats. Stats refer to what each individual soldier in the unit is like. If you're better at keeping your soldiers alive and retraining them, they'll have more men and gain more experience and thus be able to outfight units that actually have better stats. -M

25% larger unit.
More defense, offense, morale than Hastati or Principes (the best comparison IMO.) If you're comparing against the relatively elite units available earlier, they aren't as good in some cases but those units would / should likely not be making up a large part of your army.

Once you get Marian and have your outlying areas upgraded to the ability to locally recruit them, you'll be hard to stop.

In short - these guys are awesome (in a kick ass and take no prisoners kinda way) :laugh4:

Except for the Triarii, that's not really correct.

Polybian Hastati have +2 armor compared to Camillan Hastati

Polybian Principes have a net +2 defense compared to Camillan Principes. They also have +1 attack, which isn't clear because we're compensating for the -4 spear attack penalty that the Camillans get.

Polybian Triarii are slightly weaker than Camillan Triarii, which is as it should be.

The Cohors Reformata are slightly inferior the the Polybian Principes, but superior to the Hastati purely on an attack/defense basis. When you factor in the larger unit size and higher morale, they come out ahead.

In the polybian reforms only the equites and triarii get (slightly) weaker armor to represent the change from cuirass to mail, the hastatii and principes have better armor and all of them get better morale. The marian cohorts are essentially polybian principes minus greaves so they have a weaker defence.

Also the soldiers that Gaius Marius defeated the Cimbri with would have been similar to the ones that were defeated at Arausio (which was down to bad leadership rather that any inherent weaknesses in the units) in 105bc, two years after the marian reforms occured (107bc) I may add.

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Originally Posted by Atilius

Except for the Triarii, that's not really correct.

Polybian Hastati have +2 armor compared to Camillan Hastati

Polybian Principes have a net +2 defense compared to Camillan Principes. They also have +1 attack, which isn't clear because we're compensating for the -4 spear attack penalty that the Camillans get.

Polybian Triarii are slightly weaker than Camillan Triarii, which is as it should be.

The Cohors Reformata are slightly inferior the the Polybian Principes, but superior to the Hastati purely on an attack/defense basis. When you factor in the larger unit size and higher morale, they come out ahead.

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Was looking at Marian - and while it's true Triarii are better, historically you shouldn't be walking around with full stacks of them. As to the Principes / Cohors Reformata - you have that backwards. Cohors Reformata have 1 more attack, the larger unit size, 1 better defensive skill, 1 better morale. Better yet - no shipping replacements from Italy.

Edit: Well, 2 people have said the opposite regarding CR versus Polybian Prin - have to wonder if the unit viewer is inaccurate.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starforge

As to the Principes / Cohors Reformata - you have that backwards. Cohors Reformata have 1 more attack, the larger unit size, 1 better defensive skill, 1 better morale.

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I was not responding to your post, however you're off the mark about attack and defense. EB 1.2 stats:

Polybian Principes
Attack 11
Armor 12
Defense skill 8
Shield 4

Cohors Reformata
Attack 11
Armor 10
Defense skill 8
Shield 4

As I said, on a purely attack/defense basis, Cohors Reformata are slightly inferior to Polybian Principes, but larger unit size and higher morale more than make up the difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Atilius

I was not responding to your post, however you're off the mark about attack and defense. EB 1.2 stats:

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Yep, just verified the HTML unit comparison installed with EB is in fact inaccurate - ignore the numbers posted above.