The End of Piracy?

Recently, in my French campaign, I took the province of Anigua in the carribean from pirates/rebels, and an odd thing happened -- I got a message saying Nation Destroyed... Pirates.

I had actually invaded Antigua because this giant pirate fleet with Galleons kept blockading my port at Martinque. I figured the only way to defeat them would be capture their nearby port, and then wear them down through a series of battles where I'd hit them with faster ships and retreat to repair -- without the port they'd have to withdraw somewhere else.

But when I captured Antigua, I think the pirate feel just up and vanished. At the time I thought it had just sailed elswhere. But then I also noticed that there were pirate fleets sitting on trade resources in west africa that also vanished suddenly too. And I also haven't seen a pirate fleet anywhere for at least 30 or 40 turns. Is that the end of piracy altogether?

I think Antigua may have been the remnants of the UP empire that ended once I captured the Netherlands. But with that "Nation Destroyed" message, does that mean that pirates/rebels will no longer randomly spawn? Can they re-emerge? Without a pirate controlled region anywhere on the globe, will there be no piracy? Most importantly: is there any point to this outdated fleet I have sitting in the Carribean to protect trade or, can I disband that crap and hold off rebuilding until find myself at war with British/Spanish/Mexican navies?

This irked me at first, but increasingly, I'm thinking that this is historically proper. Piracy did end for good in the 18th century (well.. at least until it re-emerged in 2008!)

The Pirates are a faction almost just like any other. Capture their strongholds and the disappear. If a faction with colonies in the Caribbean is destroyed they will reappear. Most players who play a trading faction (UP, GB, France or Spain) try to take them out ASAP.

Noooo, don't kill off the pirates! Ever since the last patch they've been spawning tons of galleons and fluyts (and even raiding into other theaters!) and this has basically been the main source of my Navy's xp during peacetime. They even send a few ships down to the trade theatres so my ships on station over there can gain xp (normally pickings are slim in the trade theaters). And as GB I always try to save enough money in the treasury to go a few years without trade income so this doesn't break my bank.

They still can reemerge and I think any island in the Caribbean turns to pirates should a faction be defeated while owning them, although I could be wrong. I think they can also rebel to pirates but have never seen it as most islands you cant develop industry wich makes them near impossible to rebel

I've always felt that when you capture the Pirate's stronghold that any pirate ships still not destroyed (as in captured or sunk) shouldnt be removed from the game. CA should have made it so you have to hunt down and destroy every single pirate ship if you want them gone altogether. Their land forces shouldnt come back though. It would make it more realistic I think. This is just my own opinion concerning the pirates and their ships.

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Originally Posted by Skott

I've always felt that when you capture the Pirate's stronghold that any pirate ships still not destroyed (as in captured or sunk) shouldnt be removed from the game. CA should have made it so you have to hunt down and destroy every single pirate ship if you want them gone altogether. Their land forces shouldnt come back though. It would make it more realistic I think. This is just my own opinion concerning the pirates and their ships.

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Yeah but it's how the pirates actually got destroyed, US sent marines to the shores of tripoli and got rid of their land bases back in 1801-ish

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Originally Posted by Babblearossa

Yeah but it's how the pirates actually got destroyed, US sent marines to the shores of tripoli and got rid of their land bases back in 1801-ish

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Those were the Barbary States.

Pirates of the Barbary states... AFAIK the states were really a loose bag of pretty much un-goverened city states, held by pirate leaders/strongmen. Spain, Genoa and other North Mediteranean states fought naval and expeditionary land wars with them from the 1600s onwards, to little lasting effect you might say.

Incidentaly, anyone else find it funny that the caribean pirates recruit Galleons and Fluyts? These large trading vessels were the very ships they preyed upon! Pirates used sloops and brigs as a rule... A galleon would be the worst kind of ship to use for piracy -ponderous and slow as they are.

I think the galleons and fluyts represent captured vessels. That way, it seems quite logical.

Like I said in the other thread pirates shouldn't really be treated as a faction, they ought to be a by-product of the use of privateers. Historically, thats where most of the Caribean pirates originated and the pirate islands were really just a consequence of the sheer number of privateers employed and then paid-off at various times in this area.

I agree that pirates should not disappear when their provinces are captured. Fortunately, this will be easy to fix once the mod tools are out. All that has to be done is to add in an invisible province somewhere that is completely inaccessible. That way the pirates can never be eliminated, and their ships will live on even if their accessible provinces are captured.

One feature that would be nice though would be to be able to sponsor piracy yourself in a certain area. As Didz noted, most piracy was conducted by privateers with letters of marque, not true Blackbeard types. It would be nice if we could sail a fleet somewhere, then click a button to donate it to the pirate faction. Since pirate fleets tend to stick around the area they are in, this could have a dramatic impact on local shipping. Sail one of your fleets to a trade theater you don't own and then release it to the pirates. Havoc on the high seas!

I would actually like to see factions have the ability to recruit privateers, a bit like mercenaries for their land armies. Then as long as they obey their license those privateers will operated under letters of marquis against ships of the chosen factions with of course the percentage chance that they may decide to go independant if not during the terms of their contracts perhaps when they expire or are terminated.

Historically, merchant raiding was carried out mostly by privateers, under contract to their King/nation and with target's/enemies corresponding to their Nation/King's enemies. Privateering was most apparent during times of war -i'm not aware of their being letters of Marque (legitimising piracy) against traders with whom a state of war did not exist.

Ok, so this IS a wikipedia quote but... "Caribbean piracy arose out of, and mirrored on a smaller scale, the conflicts over trade and colonization among the rival European powers of the time, including the empires of Britain, Spain, the Netherlands, Portugal and France. Most of these pirates were of English, Dutch and French origin."

The advantage in game terms of donating fleets to the pirate faction would mean they could provide revenue from trade raiding while not at war with the trading nation. What would prevent the donated ships preying on your own trade though?

Perhaps it would be better to retain player control, such that the player could designate a fleet as pirates, affiliated with their nation, but fair game for any other faction -in a similar way as privateers in CIVIV can operate with impunity, but are also vulnerable to attack frmo anyone.

privateers? that's what all those enemy faction ships with the flashing pirate/factions flags are.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

i'm not aware of their being letters of Marque (legitimising piracy) against traders with whom a state of war did not exist.

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One that springs instantly to mind is Sir Francis Drake, operating independantly against the Spanish with the secret approval of the Queen of England, who denied all knowledge of his actions. I also have a very interesting book about Captain Francois Thurot 'privateer, agent extra-ordinaire, smuggler, sabateur-eleet and French naval officer., who amongst other amazing expliots was employed to provide secret succour to the Irish in their bid to throw the English out of Ireland. His activites began in 1744 until his death in battle with the British Frigates Aelous, Pallas and Brilliant off Jurby Point. Isle of Mann on the 28th February 1760.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

Incidentaly, anyone else find it funny that the caribean pirates recruit Galleons and Fluyts? These large trading vessels were the very ships they preyed upon! Pirates used sloops and brigs as a rule... A galleon would be the worst kind of ship to use for piracy -ponderous and slow as they are.

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Blackbeard's ship was a fluyt during his brief life of piracy. Although that ship would be an exception to the "rule".

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Originally Posted by Flavius Gonzo

Recently, in my French campaign, I took the province of Anigua in the carribean from pirates/rebels, and an odd thing happened -- I got a message saying Nation Destroyed... Pirates.

I had actually invaded Antigua because this giant pirate fleet with Galleons kept blockading my port at Martinque. I figured the only way to defeat them would be capture their nearby port, and then wear them down through a series of battles where I'd hit them with faster ships and retreat to repair -- without the port they'd have to withdraw somewhere else.

But when I captured Antigua, I think the pirate feel just up and vanished. At the time I thought it had just sailed elswhere. But then I also noticed that there were pirate fleets sitting on trade resources in west africa that also vanished suddenly too. And I also haven't seen a pirate fleet anywhere for at least 30 or 40 turns. Is that the end of piracy altogether?

I think Antigua may have been the remnants of the UP empire that ended once I captured the Netherlands. But with that "Nation Destroyed" message, does that mean that pirates/rebels will no longer randomly spawn? Can they re-emerge? Without a pirate controlled region anywhere on the globe, will there be no piracy? Most importantly: is there any point to this outdated fleet I have sitting in the Carribean to protect trade or, can I disband that crap and hold off rebuilding until find myself at war with British/Spanish/Mexican navies?

This irked me at first, but increasingly, I'm thinking that this is historically proper. Piracy did end for good in the 18th century (well.. at least until it re-emerged in 2008!)

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See if you took only the one set of Islands, then what happened to Trinidad?

Did you take it and not mention it…or is this one of the undocumented sea invasions?

The pirates start with the two regions and if a faction in the area is eliminated then they gain those regions.

As to the pirates being eliminated, that is a good thing. You control how long and how much damage they do. Though the new upkeep costs keep them smaller than they were. When they get tiresome you wipe them out. They are my favorite source of merchant ships in the early game. Though I soon try to block their ports if I am a faction in the area. They also have a far east fleet so at the games start they are the number one naval power. And for a long time no one can afford the ships to take them all on.

There never were massive pirate fleets that I have ever heard of. But it makes things interesting for a while. Still I don’t want them to be indestructible.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

See if you took only the one set of Islands, then what happened to Trinidad?

Did you take it and not mention it…or is this one of the undocumented sea invasions?

The pirates start with the two regions and if a faction in the area is eliminated then they gain those regions.

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I think I had my story a big mixed up. Just after I captured the Netherlands, the eastern carribean looked like this:

Me (France): Martinique, Dutch Guyana, French Guyana
Pirates: Curacao, Antigua, Trinidad

I took Antigua first then Curacao; my problem with the giant pirate galleon fleet started happening after that, when pirates only owned Trinidad. I took Trinidad to destroy them. So, as far as I'm aware, this was not an undocumented sea invasion.

I guess I am a bit bummed that I didn't get to defeat the pirate fleet with repeated hit and run tactics after I deprived them of a port.

Another random thought: I noticed that pirate armies in battles seemed to go after my general exclusively. I had a few where I repeatedly ran their mobs in circles in front of my own infantry to great affect, but actually did loose one general this way. (Sometimes, the pirate mob would manage to get off a volley at my general.) It seems this is the only battle I've fought this way; do you all think it's just due to the specific makeup of pirate armies? Or does the AI change based on the faction it represents? It seems like a very "piratey" thing to do: commit your entire army to destroying the other army's commander.

No! the Ai has very limited and simplistic battlefield priorities.

First priority = Charge your guns regardless of where they are and whats protecting them.

Second Priority = Kill your general regardless of where he is and whats protecting him.

Third Priority = Attack a unit in the flank, even if you need to run through a hail of grapeshot and musketry to get there.

Once you've worked out these simple tactic's its easy to counter them by forming your army into a square, masking your guns with chevau de frise and making sure your general stays well to the rear protected by your reserves.

I actually found native american armies to be the most annoying mainly because the long range of their bowmen enabled them to take out my general from beyond my front line, simply by sacrificing a few hundred warriors.