The next patch balance changes
Right so as I said in the Daily Update on Friday I am going to elaborate more on the next patch balance changes in the kind of detail I’m sure many of you will love. I'm going to go through in section (artillery, units, morale, and fatigue) and for each I'll post the changes and then elaborate on why they have been done.
I would also like to highlight the fact that there will be more changes, feel free to comment on any change, none of this is really set in stone apart from some of the unit balancing changes.
Artillery Changes
- Calibration area for cannons and howitzers reduced. Accuracy of non-round shot shot types reduced to compensate.
- Muzzle velocity of round shot for cannons increased to make them fire lower and bounce more, accuracy also increased.
- Lethality of shrapnel pieces reduced to match canister shot, range also reduced to 350.
- Load time for special shot types for howitzers increased slightly, and range reduced to 350.
- Calibration area for mortars increased, accuracy of round shot increased to compensate. Reload time increased slightly.
- Accuracy of 18 lbr horse guard artillery restored to 65.
- Hit points of gun trains increased to 50, all guns and caissons to 25.
There changes result in a much better overall balance to artillery and projectiles, and makes round shot a more viable shot type. I've tried to give different shot types a more distinct role, and encourage use of more shot types instead of just focusing on one or two that are clearly better. The hit point increases massively increase artillery gun and carriage survivability, but even more may be needed. Still want to take a look at carcass and quick lime.
Units
- Melee defence has generally decreased across the board, and charge bonus gone up.
- Stat tweaks made to differentiate more between different unit types, so light cavalry is more distinct from standard etc.
- Spot distance of light infantry, light cavalry, skirmishers, irregulars and missile cavalry increased from 75 to 100 for medium scrub, and from 100 to 150 for long grass to enable them to scout better on the battlefield.
- Redone costing with new formula with resultant better balanced costs.
- Movement speed for units dropped by 10%.
- Slight decrease in unit morale across the board (mostly just -1).
- Light infantry range increased to 90.
- Grenzer weapon reload time increased, and grenzer ammo dropped.
- Ammo for line infantry increased to 15, light infantry to 20.
The unit stat tweaks are too numerous to list out, but the general aim has been to try and differentiate more between certain unit types or units that lacked differences, and to improve the overall balance. Changes such as the spot distance changes have also been done to add to the differences between some unit types. The changes to melee defence and charge should result in less endlessly prolonged melees and some more decisive charges.
The light infantry range changes have been made as I feel the current 10 metre difference between them and line is too small and requires a bit too much micro.
The costing changes are big in terms of how they are worked out. Before the formula was like this:
Cost of unit = (missile cost per man * size of unit) + (melee cost per man * size of unit) + (battle cost of some unit abilities) + (campaign cost of some unit abilities if campaign cost OR cost of techs for unit in early if early MP cost OR cost of techs for unit in late if late MP cost).
Whilst looking like a good formula for working out a units costs, the costs that came out of it and some of the costs you have seen are obviously not very well balanced. The costing formula has now moved to working out all costs on a per man basis and then multiplying and adding them all together. From the costs the new formula has been producing I do have to say I am much happier with it, and when I have more time I'll post some examples of new unit stats/costs compared to old.
Morale
- Charge morale bonus reduced from 10 to 4.
- Recent casualties, extended casualties and total casualties morale penalties increased slightly for higher percentages.
- Rear and flank exposed morale penalties increased.
Not many changes, but combined with the slight decrease to unit morale I think it is working out nicely. But this is one area I want to put a lot of time into. Currently in 1.2 units stay too long in melee at times, are pretty much impossible to break on the charge and flank effects probably aren't pronounced enough. But I do not want to push things too far the other way so keeping an eye on these changes.
Fatigue
- Fatigue penalty for melee reduced from 18 per tick to 12.
- Running fatigue penalty for heavy and light cavalry reduced from -3/-2 to -2/-1.
Not many changes here, but just designed to make cavalry more useful once it has been in one engagement, currently units who engage in melee get exhausted far too quickly. I want to look at fatigue more for the next patch, but undecided on a course of action yet.
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Think that's all for now, feel free to ask any questions you have, and to make and feedback you want.
Re: The next patch balance changes
Hello Jack,
Just let me start of and say: Great to see you here! Great that you are here to explain some of the choices you are making for this game, and great to see you appreciate our feedback.
Now, one thing I don't get:
What do you mean with "calibration area"?
Then, about gameplay
- Are you planning to introduce ammo limits on artillery? This would influence balance as well!
- With the changes to cavalry (more powerful), are you planning to make them somewhat more expensive to keep the focus on infantry?
Thank you for your time!
Best regards,
Sulla
Re: The next patch balance changes
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What do you mean with "calibration area"?
It is the size of the area that a projectile will hit with 100 marksmanship. Different projectile types (small arms, cannon/howitzer, mortars) have different calibration areas.
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- Are you planning to introduce ammo limits on artillery? This would influence balance as well!
No.
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- With the changes to cavalry (more powerful), are you planning to make them somewhat more expensive to keep the focus on infantry?
Costs are definitely being looked at.
Re: The next patch balance changes
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Originally Posted by
Jack Lusted
Right so as I said in the Daily Update on Friday I am going to elaborate more on the next patch balance changes in the kind of detail I’m sure many of you will love. I'm going to go through in section (artillery, units, morale, and fatigue) and for each I'll post the changes and then elaborate on why they have been done.
I would also like to highlight the fact that there will be more changes, feel free to comment on any change, none of this is really set in stone apart from some of the unit balancing changes.
Artillery Changes
- Calibration area for cannons and howitzers reduced. Accuracy of non-round shot shot types reduced to compensate.
- Muzzle velocity of round shot for cannons increased to make them fire lower and bounce more, accuracy also increased.
- Lethality of shrapnel pieces reduced to match canister shot, range also reduced to 350.
- Load time for special shot types for howitzers increased slightly, and range reduced to 350.
- Calibration area for mortars increased, accuracy of round shot increased to compensate. Reload time increased slightly.
- Accuracy of 18 lbr horse guard artillery restored to 65.
- Hit points of gun trains increased to 50, all guns and caissons to 25.
There changes result in a much better overall balance to artillery and projectiles, and makes round shot a more viable shot type. I've tried to give different shot types a more distinct role, and encourage use of more shot types instead of just focusing on one or two that are clearly better. The hit point increases massively increase artillery gun and carriage survivability, but even more may be needed. Still want to take a look at carcass and quick lime.
as it is...i barley use artillery at all... when you reduce the range of the effective ammo to 350 i suspect i will never use it.. unless the round shot is useful now.. and with a 10% drop in movement speed it will be harder to close the distance rapidly... is the cost going down? this will make things different for sure.. i hope for the better but without playing it, its hard to tell..
sry for my ignorance... what is the current hp of trains and caissons.. and do those stats effect how long the unit will last in melee.. on a side note.. with the increasing hp... it would be nice if you put back in the ability to attack either the guns or the crew with melee troops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jack Lusted
Units
- Melee defence has generally decreased across the board, and charge bonus gone up.
- Stat tweaks made to differentiate more between different unit types, so light cavalry is more distinct from standard etc.
- Spot distance of light infantry, light cavalry, skirmishers, irregulars and missile cavalry increased from 75 to 100 for medium scrub, and from 100 to 150 for long grass to enable them to scout better on the battlefield.
- Redone costing with new formula with resultant better balanced costs.
- Movement speed for units dropped by 10%.
- Slight decrease in unit morale across the board (mostly just -1).
- Light infantry range increased to 90.
- Grenzer weapon reload time increased, and grenzer ammo dropped.
- Ammo for line infantry increased to 15, light infantry to 20.
The unit stat tweaks are too numerous to list out, but the general aim has been to try and differentiate more between certain unit types or units that lacked differences, and to improve the overall balance. Changes such as the spot distance changes have also been done to add to the differences between some unit types. The changes to melee defence and charge should result in less endlessly prolonged melees and some more decisive charges.
The light infantry range changes have been made as I feel the current 10 metre difference between them and line is too small and requires a bit too much micro.
wow.. this will be like playing a new game almost.. the entire flavor of mp will change. a few things i wonder about.. with the reduced unit speed and moral.. how much charging is going to be happening? since i see nothing to say reload rates are going down 10% across the board... rushing a group of units will be less inviting then before, even if your charge is more effective.. you need troops to get there and not break for it to be of any help..
increased range, lower speed, lower moral.. this all adds up for me to a more camping and more stand off battles with lots of rifle units and lite inf.. i think you will see a lot less melee and a lot more routing from being shot to pieces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jack Lusted
Morale
- Charge morale bonus reduced from 10 to 4.
- Recent casualties, extended casualties and total casualties morale penalties increased slightly for higher percentages.
- Rear and flank exposed morale penalties increased.
Not many changes, but combined with the slight decrease to unit morale I think it is working out nicely. But this is one area I want to put a lot of time into. Currently in 1.2 units stay too long in melee at times, are pretty much impossible to break on the charge and flank effects probably aren't pronounced enough. But I do not want to push things too far the other way so keeping an eye on these changes.
so much to think about.. so many variables are changing its impossible to say if we will like them or not... large changes in the past have not gone well.. i hope these will be well tested before we are all forced to upgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jack Lusted
Fatigue
- Fatigue penalty for melee reduced from 18 per tick to 12.
- Running fatigue penalty for heavy and light cavalry reduced from -3/-2 to -2/-1.
Not many changes here, but just designed to make cavalry more useful once it has been in one engagement, currently units who engage in melee get exhausted far too quickly. I want to look at fatigue more for the next patch, but undecided on a course of action yet.
please return the feature to set fatigue levels as a host.. then you can make it whatever you want and everyone will be happy. i think there are many people who feel there is too little fatigue at the moment and some who will really like having less.
Re: The next patch balance changes
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as it is...i barley use artillery at all... when you reduce the range of the effective ammo to 350 i suspect i will never use it.. unless the round shot is useful now.. and with a 10% drop in movement speed it will be harder to close the distance rapidly... is the cost going down? this will make things different for sure.. i hope for the better but without playing it, its hard to tell..
The changes will make round shot an effective so no, not all effective ammo will be 350. Changing howitzer range to 350 means that foot or horse artillery can bombard the howitzers before they get into range. Costs will reflect the ability of the units in battles.
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sry for my ignorance... what is the current hp of trains and caissons..
1.
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and do those stats effect how long the unit will last in melee..
Nope, the hp of the artillery crew is not being changed.
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wow.. this will be like playing a new game almost.. the entire flavor of mp will change. a few things i wonder about.. with the reduced unit speed and moral.. how much charging is going to be happening?
Well with charge values going up charging will be more beneficial in some situations.
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since i see nothing to say reload rates are going down 10% across the board... rushing a group of units will be less inviting then before, even if your charge is more effective.. you need troops to get there and not break for it to be of any help..
Rushing is still useful, espcially with the changes to charge and melee defence.
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increased range, lower speed, lower moral.. this all adds up for me to a more camping and more stand off battles with lots of rifle units and lite inf.. i think you will see a lot less melee and a lot more routing from being shot to pieces.
I would disagree and say that as charge has gone up and melee defence gone down meleeing will be more valuable to break an enemy at times, and I think that camping won't be more encouraged.
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so much to think about.. so many variables are changing its impossible to say if we will like them or not... large changes in the past have not gone well.. i hope these will be well tested before we are all forced to upgrade.
Of course it is being well tested.
Re: The next patch balance changes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jack Lusted
The changes will make round shot an effective so no, not all effective ammo will be 350. Changing howitzer range to 350 means that foot or horse artillery can bombard the howitzers before they get into range. Costs will reflect the ability of the units in battles.
That's an interesting tactical change, however, it also cuts the distance infantry and cavalry has to cover to close in with the artillery pieces, making them even more vulnerable. Have you considered simply increasing round shot range instead of reducing other ranges? Or sharing that 50 difference between them, making the ranges 425 and 375?
Re: The next patch balance changes
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That's an interesting tactical change, however, it also cuts the distance infantry and cavalry has to cover to close in with the artillery pieces, making them even more vulnerable. Have you considered simply increasing round shot range instead of reducing other ranges? Or sharing that 50 difference between them, making the ranges 425 and 375?
Problem with increasing range is that you then encounter the problem of foot and horse artillery being able to fire on opposing player in 1v1 maps especially as soon as deployment has ended hence why I do not really want to do that.
Re: The next patch balance changes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Lusted
The changes will make round shot an effective so no, not all effective ammo will be 350. Changing howitzer range to 350 means that foot or horse artillery can bombard the howitzers before they get into range. Costs will reflect the ability of the units in battles.
I am all in favor of limiting the howitzer. To me they should be more like mobile mortars, basically formation busters, not field guns. As they are now they discourage the use of other artillery.
It’s just not worth bringing cannon for the hand full of shots you might get before the howis take them out.
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A howitzer is a type of artillery piece that is characterized by a relatively short barrel and the use of comparatively small explosive charges to propel projectiles at relatively high trajectories, with a steep angle of descent. In the taxonomies of artillery pieces used by European (and European-style) armies in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries, the howitzer stood between the "gun" (which was characterized by a longer barrel, larger propelling charges, smaller shells, higher velocities and flatter trajectories) and the "mortar" (which has the ability to fire projectiles at even higher angles of ascent and descent).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer
Re: The next patch balance changes
I would be very careful with increasing cost of cavarly. Before patch cav costed much and was useless - people like line infantry spam. Nowadays cheaper and better cav can be decisive into battle. If you increase it costs and same time increase range of light infantry, cavarly might be useless again.
Anyway how about hand mortars - this unit now seems to be a bit too expensive (it has better range but much worse effect than grenadiers).
Re: The next patch balance changes
Hi Jack,
Thanks for keeping us updated. Changes look good overall but I am strongly concerned about your idea to reduce melee combat time for three reasons:
1, Please change only one thing at a time. I do agree with NC that changing too many things at the same time is just too risky. You want to introduce small changes but the effect of these changes will stack up. You want to decrease defence value, decrease basic morale, increase moral penalties from casualties, increase morale penalties from being flanked. This means four (!) things all affecting morale in a negative way. As a result: units start out with less morale, will die faster, will get a cumulative moral penalty of being dead faster and because of the lowered threshold, and will get an increased morale penalty from flanking. The CUMULATIVE EFFECT of these small changes will be that units will rout much faster than now, and much faster than you would expect based on any of the small changes in itself. Please do change only one thing at a time.
(Just an example: in vanilla MTW spears were the kings, everyone was running around with an army of order spears and Italian spearmen. To balance it out devs changed two things (not four!): increased the cost of spears and decreased some combat value (I am sure Yuuki will tell you which one). Next thing we knew spears were utterly useless and no one seen a single spear unit on the battlefield in the rest of MTW after the patch.)
2, Do not fix what is not broken. I am not aware of that anyone would have complained about melee combat time. There are so many bugs and issues to be fixed I think that the time and effort can be spent better on these issues. In fact all who commented on this issue (at twc) said that melee combat time is just fine as it is.
3, Shorter melee combat time favours more rushing, less tactical game. If your / your opponent’s line dies/routed off the field by the time you do anything on the flank with your cavs then there is no point of manoeuvring. Just line up your cavs behind the inf line and push trough / blob charge the weakening inf units. This is what we had in RTW and in MTW2, please do not bring this back. In all the tactical versions of TW series (STW, MTW and BI) melee combat time was long and there were units that managed properly could hold out for ages (naginata, upgraded yari; upgraded MAA; first cohort, gothic spears in schiltron) which not just allowed but necessitated manoeuvring during melee. Please take this into account and do not change the factors affecting melee combat time (i.e. defence, morale).
Thanks,
Lional of Cornwall
Re: The next patch balance changes
The problem now with melee is that in situations where one unit should clearly lose quite quickly, it drags on and on and on. You are correct that all the changes taken together could result in melee resolving too quickly now and remove some of the more tactical elements from longer combat time, but from the testing I have done I would say that is not going to happen. I can understand your concern, but I am definitely keeping an eye on things to make sure they don't go too far the other way.
Re: The next patch balance changes
Thanks for the fast response. Could you give me an example what you have in mind when you write that there are units that should lose quickly but they keep fighting on?
Re: The next patch balance changes
It is a privelege to have the ear of a dev here.
Regarding the increase in HP to artillery trains and caissons, I'm not really clear what your adjustment will do to alter gameplay. Could you explain what the intended outcome is in terms specific to each mode of engagement please? i.e how will this affect:
1. Arty/Arty engagement
2. musket fire/Arty engagement
3. melee/Arty engagement
I assume this adjustment will make the hardware more resistant in cases 1 and 2 but what of the train running off as soon as melee is joined?
Also, I wasn't bothered by cannon's collapsing under musket fire as the crews invariably did too, and my guns don't seem to fire with less than 3 crew. As such, I'd rather the guns did collapse when the unit was depleted, if it meant whatever was left of my battery could still fire rather than sharing themselves out accross silent guns.
Thanks and it's great you are ready to discuss these thinsg with us.
Re: The next patch balance changes
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Thanks for the fast response. Could you give me an example what you have in mind when you write that there are units that should lose quickly but they keep fighting on?
Generally most really, melee combat just drags on far too long.
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1. Arty/Arty engagement
Artillery guns and carriages will survive a lot longer.
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2. musket fire/Arty engagement
Means that guns/carriages won't be destroyed by musket fire now.
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3. melee/Arty engagement
Won't affect it at all.
Re: The next patch balance changes
Re: The next patch balance changes
Is there a summary of the game mechanics somewhere?
Re: The next patch balance changes
are you goning to change galleys and light galleys prices? I hope so.
Re: The next patch balance changes
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are you goning to change galleys and light galleys prices? I hope so.
Naval stats are not being changed in the next patch, apart from the damage fo the guns light galleys and galleys use being reduced.
Re: The next patch balance changes
Very good,
thank you :yes:
Re: The next patch balance changes
a list of perhaps special cases you should look at.
when changing melee you might want to pay special attention that marathas 2 melee infantry are balanced
there currently the only melee inf in late era and right now for 400 bucks there insanely good at what they do
(its actually fairly well balanced the faction has no skrimishers of 80 or 120 range and there 70 range linemen are inferior)
I don't actually see it as an issue atm but large changes to melee could either greatly hinder or overpower there faction.
hand mortars
there grenades tend to always land behind units, it seems like if a unit is say 4 deep they'll hit the 3rd or 4th line but get a unit 1 or 2 deep and every nade bounces to the rear, could you perhaps increase the calibration area for the grenades along the depth axis so that theres a chance rounds fall short and a chance they over shoot and such so theres a chance rank 1 guys get hit. of course increased effectiveness may require a price change but it'd be nice if you'd look at this.
grenadiers
any chance of allowing you the toggle to toss grenades to be permanent?
even at the expense of lowering there total grenade ammo count, MANY players hate the constant microing of the unit, telling them over and over to pull out grenades when the whole reason you brought the unit was grenades, I understand grenades are powerful and so it may be balanced by ammo or cost or bringing the unit size down to what windbushe jaegers are or something but the option to keep them on grenades seems like it would be really easy to implement and much appreciated.
the special unlock units, are you ever planning on making these viable units in mp, I mean all of them are basically tons more money for an inferior unit whose only advantage is great moral. If these are meant to be sp units however I understand but it'd be nice to know, I understand that not everyone has them and so in that sense perhaps there not viable mp units because your concerned they'd ruin the game balance but as your special edition sales decline and switch over to a version of the game that bundles them you should consider releasing the elite units for free and balancing them for mp, just a thought for future patches.
dragoons, and light dragoons
can you explain why the dragoons have inferior stats and cost more?
or if this is a bug resulting from your previous unit cost formula then it will be fixed?
ferguson riflemen and green jackets
can you explain why the green jackets are better or equal in all ways but cheaper?
(if its similar to the reason for dragoons and light dont feel the need to retype :P)
and can you confirm that with the arty hp changes a single hit from enemy arty will not kill the carriage and therefore the gun while moving, right now the fact that a hit on the horses or carriage while moving destroys the cannon makes it very difficult to move cannon, i understand this may reflect realism but it makes horse artillery for example almost completely unused, when you hate to move your arty anyways because there easy prey there mobility its a factor in chosing art.
