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Ok folks, I was wondering what units and tactics you use to defend a fort/city? Specifically, in my game as Portugal both Maratha and Mysore backstabbed me on the same turn, and keep sending semi-full stacks at me. I haven't found the repair walls button (can you repair walls?), but this is actually a good thing, as the enemy always attacks through the gap in the wall, no i can set up firing zones.
So how should I deal with the melee-heavy Marathas and Mysore in the early-ish game?
As you indicated, having a hole in the wall is an advantage since the enemy will only try to enter through that gap rather than climb the walls. If it's not too earlyish and you have Grenadiers, try the following.
Just put a solid line infantry unit across the gap set to defend and mêlée, but only 3 or 4 ranks deep. Then put some Grenadiers right behind them tossing bombs right into the gap. If your line infantry has too many ranks they might take too much damage from the grenades. This worked pretty well for me a couple of times. When about 50 or 60 grenades go off in the middle of the enemy unit they usually route right away, but have more line infantry and Grenadiers ready as you lose men.
Since you are early in the game I'm guessing you don't have mortars or howitzers yet, but if you do--- set them up in the middle of the fort so they can cover any approach.
Also Howitzers, which can lob shells over the walls, will also do some damage as the enemy approaches.
I've only had the occasion to defend a fort about 3 times in playing steady since the game released, but then I'm pretty much always on the attack anyway.
Cheers
Thanks for this-I haven't been focusing much on India, and whilst my small force of VOC infantry and the default units are holding their own, they're starting to get pretty worn down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forward Observer
I can't build grenadiers there, but my relief force with some should arrive in a turn or two. Hope I can hold in there till then :beam:
By the way, does anybody know exactly why this thread is on the front page?
It's just timing. I think the the last three threads with posts show up on the front page.
Following up on Forward Observer's excellent advice I thought I'd add a few more comments based upon my recent Dutch Campaign and the establishment of the Dutch Indian Empire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishmael
For obvious reasons its best to delay the point at which the melee heavy units get into contact with your range oritented VOC units for as long as possible and to kill as many as possible before that happens.
The other key factor is to recognise that the AI is driven by certain key priorities that have to be guarded against and if possible explioted. In the case of fort assaults the AI's single most overpowering goal is to get a unit into the winners circle in the middle of the fort at any cost.
To prevent this and make them pay heavily for trying involves a combination of tech tree and tactical planning.
Tactically, 'Do NOT try to defend the walls.' ....the number of casualties you inflict will be minimal and the troops you place on the wall are irrelevant in defending the winners circle. The AI will either kill them quickly or by-pass them and make a run for the centre. Any troops placed on the walls should be considered nothing more than a 'speed bump' sacrifice, so militia or other weak troops are the most that should be wasted on the task.
Infantry: Place your good infantry in firing lines that cover the most likely routes from the walls to the centre fort. Once you know exactly where the enemy are coming from try to place several units covering that area to create a killing zone between the ramp, or breach and the centre of the fort.
Remember, that once the walls are captured the gates become unlocked, so beware of enemy cavalry charging through the gates into the rear of your defences.
Artillery: Indirect fire artillery should be placed around the centre of the fort and used to lob shells over the wall at the attackers. They may also be able to hit the enemy on the opposite wall if placed carefully (remember they have a minimum range).
Direct fire artillery should be placed near the centre opposite the gates and approaches from the ramps where their cannister is likely to cause maximum casualties.
Cavalry: Not a lot of use to be honest....in fact it tends to get in the way. But if you have some I found it best to stick it in the corners of the fort as far from the action as possible and use it as a last resort to deal with any crisis situation.
Buildings: These are often useful for sticking poor quality units into, but personally I wouldn't recommend sticking decent infantry into them as the rate of fire from the windows is much reduced, and to be honest the last thing you want is to have melee heavy infantry chasing your men around inside a building.
Technically, there a number of important technical innovations you need to expedite when facing Indian Armies.
1) Squares - Once you have the ability to form square make sure that you keep at least one infantry unit in square on the centre spot at all times. This really screws up the AI's plans and will massacre any cavalry who make a dash for the centre through the fort gates. Also, I get the impression that men fight better in square, which seems to negate some of the advantages that Indian armies have in melee troops. That doesn't mean you should use that formation as standard as it cuts down on your firepower, but I often tell my infantry to form square if they become swamped in melee troops. Also if you have two ranks of infantry forming the first rank in square gives the second rank a better field of fire.
2) Bayonets - pretty obvious really. Anything that helps your men defend themselves in hand to hand fighting has to be good. Just don't use the plug bayonets.
3) Shell - Common shell is vital for your howitzers, its not very accurate but when it hits it hurts. Later on 'quick-lime' is even better but by then you should be holding your own against melee infantry anyway.
4) Cannister - Melee infantry hate the stuff, which means the sooner you can start using it the better. In fact, its hardly worth bothering with direct fire artillery until you have cannister.
Thats my 2 penneth anyway.
Also since your still Early, if you have spearmen and have no idea what to do with them, place them behind your gates just incase they take the walls and try to open the gates to let their cav flood in. Or, alternatively, if you can deploy stakes, put them beind your gates or any breaches in your walls. I don't think you need to keep your light infantry behind them once you set them up.
IMO the best way to defend a city is to get rid of the fort altogether and fight the battle out in the field. Even if I am forced to fight a fort battle, I put all of my units outside the fort in battle formation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishmael
If the walls cannot be used as a defensive advantage, all you are doing is boxing your army inside a tiny space where they can't really move, and your artillery can't really shoot. Mortars are great for 1 volley, then they're under your minimum effective range and you're dropping bombs on yourself. If the AI has howitzers you are completely screwed.
If you are in the early game, and if the AI has no artillery yet (first 6 or 8 turns?), the wooden fort does a good job. Defending the walls on a wooden fort when the AI has no artillery is very effective, provided you have a form of bayonet. Once AI has artillery destroy the fort.
Ishmael, melee infantry is easy to kill, just use cavalry.
Didz, if you have to fight in a fort, your cavalry should be outside the fort, their 3 jobs being A) charging enemy units attempting to scale the wall, B) kill AI artillery after most units have committed to attacking the fort, and C) drawing attacking units away from the main assault.
As a general observation I would agree, but in the case sighted in the OP we are talking about a European Army defending against an Indian one. That means that you are going to be opposed by an army comprised mostly of melee troops (Dervishes and the like) and strong in good quality cavalry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquis of Roland
European cavalry in pretty poor in the early game particularly in India, and its infantry depends on firepower. If you face an Indian army in the open, particulalry with militia or infantry that does not know how to form square you will be lucky to get off two shots before you are swamped in a mass of sword weilding or pike armed warriors that will cut your army to ribbons.
Thus the fort defence becomes a useful way of trying to even the score. The walls may not be a very good line of defence but they do slow the enemy down, and give them the same pathing problems as they give you. Thus they increase the time you have to shoot the enemy and equally important they prevent the enemy from outflanking your lines and avoiding your fire. The enemy artillery if they have any will tend to help with this process as it has the same habit of firing on its own troops as your does and I've even seen it drop a wall with a unit of its own troops on it.
Keeping your cavalry inside the fort preserves it for the time when it is needed. The enemy artillery is not going to win them the battle and may actually be helping you, so I tend to leave it alone. You will win the battle without having to destroy it anyway as gunners don't count as an unrouted unit for victory purposes, and will often abandon their guns and attakc the fort if the enemy runs out of infantry. Likewise the objective is not to draw enemy units away from the assault but to cram as amany as possible into as small a space as possible within the fort. Drawing units away from the assault merely preserves them for a potential second attack or breach.
This might be a good strategy for euorpean battles but in India and the America's where armies are geared for close combat its playing to the enemies strnegths to fight them in the open.
Why not just do away with the infantry altogether in the beginning and go all cav?
I've never been in India in the early game, but can't you recruit Indian and company cav? Lancers kill melee infantry very well, and I tested this on custom battle so I know how well they work. Heck, come to think of it, if I could recruit those I'd just put 10 of those units outside the fort lol.
As Prussia I was able to recruit lancers very early in the game; I'm thinking the native cavalry should be able to be recruited just as early. I guess if you're portugal, you'd have to make the Goa capital to a military encampment to get those?
@Didz:
Just saying those are only possible assignments for cav. You should still do option A though, because you can route whole units in 1 or 2 charges. That's whole units of less troops to deal with inside the fort. :2thumbsup:
It is possible to defend the lowest level fort walls efficiently. To some extent it is also possible with the 2nd level fort, but a complete waste of time with the star fort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
If you are defending (as opposed to defending when 'intercepting') you can deploy field defenses within the fort. Stakes at the gates (slightly off the gates, closer to the center) prevent cavalry from entering unless they blow a hole in the wall with their artillery. This is not common though (unfortunately). The AI just makes a dash for the walls (and the center); cavalry follow; once their infantry is destroyed (while cavalry lingers at the stakes), the artillery crews abandon their guns and make a dash for the 'center'. :wall:Quote:
Remember, that once the walls are captured the gates become unlocked, so beware of enemy cavalry charging through the gates into the rear of your defences.
I never had success with indirect artillery in fort defense. Direct artillery: that's a different story, especially in star forts (where they can be properly defended by infantry in "V" formation).Quote:
Artillery: Indirect fire artillery should be placed around the centre of the fort and used to lob shells over the wall at the attackers. They may also be able to hit the enemy on the opposite wall if placed carefully (remember they have a minimum range).
A unit or two of light cavalry (preferrably: light dragoons who can join the fight in the fort on foot later on) hidden in the bushes by the fort can come in handy to destroy AI artillery.Quote:
Cavalry: Not a lot of use to be honest....in fact it tends to get in the way. But if you have some I found it best to stick it in the corners of the fort as far from the action as possible and use it as a last resort to deal with any crisis situation.
Light infantry (all types) shine in buildings. Note though that post patch, AI's priority #2 (if not #1) is to assault buildings. So, entrances should be protected.Quote:
Buildings: These are often useful for sticking poor quality units into, but personally I wouldn't recommend sticking decent infantry into them as the rate of fire from the windows is much reduced, and to be honest the last thing you want is to have melee heavy infantry chasing your men around inside a building.
That's my 2 cents ;)
Cavalry type Barracks level (for GB)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquis of Roland
Company cavalry 2
Company lancers 3
Native cavalry 4
Native cavalry is superior to the other two. But if you've advanced sufficiently to get native cavalry, you probably don't need them. Even in 1742, I have not recruited a single one, as my conquest of India was finished with only one 3rd level barracks on the whole continent...
I find that defending towns is easy if you garrison each building with one line infantry or melee infantry, and keep one infantry or cavalry unit nearby to fire on or attack whoever tries to storm the house.
Same thing for siege defense. Though, at the start, line up your infantry along the walls at first to get a few free kills, and then retreat them down to the garrisons when the enemy starts scaling. When the enemy takes the walls, the gates will open for the rest of their units (this is a good thing). Have your cavalry standing by to charge into any enemy that comes through. The enemy will most likely be at least Tired by the time they march through the gates because most of the time they will be running. This will give your cavalry the advantage.
EDIT: Also, having cannons with canister shot will greatly help in the defense of a fort. Aim that sucker at the gate and watch the enemy fall in droves.
My only problem with this is (the garrisoning buildings part) that my infantry kill barely any as they come in or as they sit in the centre. Then, they can just sit there until the timer runs down, and if I try to charge them in melee I get cut to pieces by their superior melee infantry as my men charge in in single file. That, and I don't have any cavalry (other than my general), and I don't think I can recruit any (I haven't played for a while due to a tax bug, so i'm not sure).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kekvit Irae
I've never been a great fan of cavalry in TW games. I've seen my son rout whole armies with a single cavalry unit in MTW2 but it involves far to much micro-management for my tastes. I also have a personal dislike of the way cavalry have been modelled in the game so I try to use them as little as possible and then only in the way they were historically employed,(which of course doesn't work :dizzy2:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquis of Roland
But to answer your second point, as far as I know you can only recruit Colonial Militia Cavalry (which is useless), and VOC Cavalry (which is almost useless). I've not noticed any ability to recruit cavalry on a par with your Indian adversaries, although I haven't really been bothering to look that hard.
In my experience the Indian melee infantry will probably pwn any cavalry you can field, though they do have a bit more success with the armed peasant mobs. But then they aren't the problem.
Played some last night (battle difficulty hard) and I'm killing Indian melee infantry just fine with company cavalry. I am even wiping out the Indian cav (I am using Mongol feint-and-flank tactics on them lol). If your cav is dying to the melee infantry it could be that they're stuck in melee too long. After I hit with a charge I almost immediately run them back out to reform and charge again, and I always use my cav in teams of 2 or 3. 3 cav units charging an infantry unit from 3 different directions = rout.
I understand your feeling about the level of micromanagement though, I don't like micromanaging them myself if I don't have to; right now I already have to deal with both light infantry and artillery micro.
If the cav in India early on isn't doing it for you, you can always recruit regiments of horse in Europe and ship them to India in 2 turns. I've never been Portugal before but I believe regiment of horse is a generic unit every European faction can recruit early in the game. With those units you should have no problem, that is some decent cav there.
I agree with you on the cav appearance. It sucks, but hey, the animations are pretty cool. :laugh4:
Nah! I prefer to stick to the historical solution and teach my infantry to form square. The AI obligingly suicides its cavalry into the squares which is totally 'dumb' and ahistoric but makes life easier.