Are Eqvites Extraordinarii really that bad?

I rarely used them in my Roman campaigns. But in my latest campaign I've decided to give them a chance. They look like Hetairoi after all :) I was attacking a small settlement in Dalmatia, all defenders were pushed back into the town square. My legionnaires were slowly making their way through last 2 units of Illirian coast militias. I moved those Equites right behind the militia and charged. I was expecting some nice results. I got some results - not quite what I was expecting. During only the charge and withdrawal the supposedly elite equites lost 12 men. They didn't stay to fight. They charged, started dieing like flies and I moved them out. It cost the unit 12 men out of 50.

So, if those "elite" cavalry can't deal with militia even when charging into the rear of the unit, then what are they good for? Chasing skirmishers? I can get a couple of Roman Equites or even Campanian missile cavalry for that. They are much cheaper and don't pretend to be heavy tanks like Extraordinarii do.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Ulpius

I rarely used them in my Roman campaigns. But in my latest campaign I've decided to give them a chance. They look like Hetairoi after all :) I was attacking a small settlement in Dalmatia, all defenders were pushed back into the town square. My legionnaires were slowly making their way through last 2 units of Illirian coast militias. I moved those Equites right behind the militia and charged. I was expecting some nice results. I got some results - not quite what I was expecting. During only the charge and withdrawal the supposedly elite equites lost 12 men. They didn't stay to fight. They charged, started dieing like flies and I moved them out. It cost the unit 12 men out of 50.

So, if those "elite" cavalry can't deal with militia even when charging into the rear of the unit, then what are they good for? Chasing skirmishers? I can get a couple of Roman Equites or even Campanian missile cavalry for that. They are much cheaper and don't pretend to be heavy tanks like Extraordinarii do.

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Are you sure they were actually in "charge mode", with the lances lowered? In "town" combat, I often find that its almost impossible to get lance cavalry to charge, due to strange path finding..i.e. they never get up to charge speed, and just wander into combat at trot speed. In this case, they are worse than useless.

They shouldn't be left in melee combat for more than a second or two. The charge is their strength. Try them in the open field, a couple of rear charges will rout absolutely anything, if timed correctly. And that's the key, getting a unit to rout..In a town, its harder to rout a unit (which at best will run to the town square, then come back keen to fight again).

they are good in open field battles when they have enouth space to charge. they are made to charge and then retreat charge and retreat always in the back of the enemy.

but to be fair, I'm rather sure they are the worst of the "charge only cavalry" as they cost more than their Greek variant the hippeis Xystophoroi and don't have better stats afair Tessalian cav Mossulan and Ptolemaic agema are of similar type. same with the Prodromoi and the illyrian hippeis are similar as well tho much cheaper and weaker and with a shorter spear but essentially they do the same job.

all of them excel at charging tho die as soon as they are used incorrectly together with hoplites or some other infantry that refuses to die quickly they make excellent Phalanx breakers.

Ditto what drewski said cavalry are absoultely useless in city battles, also those miltia your taking about have AP maces which is the last thing you want cavalry to fight in meele.

I love the Eqvites Extraordinarii they are the best cav the romans get, just use them as heavy chargers and avoid getting into meele with infantry and they work a treat.

The Equites Exreaordinarii are the best shock cavalry the Romans have. Used them with the Equites Consolarii and charge the enemy in the rear, retreat and do the same again. This tactic has always work for me, even with the Equites Romani victory is assured.

Cheers.

Extraordinarii are pretty much hte best impact cavalry you get. They are pretty much standard greek heavy cavalry... very average.

The Romans don't really have any other types of impact cavalry but where they really do actually shine are their varieties of medium/heavy skirmisher cavalry. Campanians are probably some of the best medium/heavy cavalry in the game. You'll have to wait until the Imperial Reforms(lulz) for their otehr good cavalry options though.

I've tried them in an open field in my recently renewed war with Epiros. They did quite well. One time they managed to rout Illirian coast militia with rear charge. Another time they were not so lucky and lost some men, but actually they did rather well (killed 263, lost 4). Not quite Greek heave cav, and certainly not Eastern tanks, but at least something as Romans don't have many cavalry options.

I LOVE them-
they are made to charge the enemy rear or flank
I find them good open country tanks against all sorts of slingers archers and light skirmishers
I can recruit/retrain them in Italy
plus they are not mercenaries, so they stick to it
obvious choice for me so far
so: no, I don't think the are really that bad

Well, you also have to consider that the Illyrian Coastal Levies (the blokes with AP maces) have quite a loose formation. That always minimises the impact of the charge. As do the streets of the city, as mentioned before. In any case, any two-handed lance cavalry is superb for charges, even if it is the lowly Prodromoi, which is the ONLY type of cavalry I field as Eperios, despite being quite large by now.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

In any case, any two-handed lance cavalry is superb for charges, even if it is the lowly Prodromoi, which is the ONLY type of cavalry I field as Eperios, despite being quite large by now.

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Which leads me to pose this question: if a certain faction even just one unit of cavalry that performs well in its role (e.g. Eqvites Extraordinarii for medium cavalry, Campanians for skirmishers), why do people complain of a lack of/poor-quality cavalry? Surely one can simply mass-produce that one well-performing unit.

I know that the Getai can't boast a wide variety of cavalry, but I simply field a large number of Tarabostes (and Traikioi Prodromoi when fighting on any Eastern fronts) and my need for cavalry is fulfilled.

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Originally Posted by Frontline1944

Which leads me to pose this question: if a certain faction even just one unit of cavalry that performs well in its role (e.g. Eqvites Extraordinarii for medium cavalry, Campanians for skirmishers), why do people complain of a lack of/poor-quality cavalry? Surely one can simply mass-produce that one well-performing unit.

I know that the Getai can't boast a wide variety of cavalry, but I simply field a large number of Tarabostes (and Traikioi Prodromoi when fighting on any Eastern fronts) and my need for cavalry is fulfilled.

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The reason why I don't mass produce them is that I try to make more or less historically accurate armies. Romans were not famous for their cavalry, so my consular army has 2 units of cavalry, besides commander himself and may be his younger deputy. I also do not mass produce pedites extraordinarii. Consular army gets around 2 of those. The rest are the regular troops.

I was probably disappointed by Equites Extraordinarii after playing Saka campaign because I got used to Saka bodyguards that cut their way through anything and their rear charge is irresistible. 3 units of those when charging into rear of the unit can totally devastate it :)

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Originally Posted by Marcus Ulpius

I was probably disappointed by Equites Extraordinarii after playing Saka campaign because I got used to Saka bodyguards that cut their way through anything and their rear charge is irresistible. 3 units of those when charging into rear of the unit can totally devastate it :)

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Well as the saying goes:"Need best cavalry? Go to the Nomads!":laugh4:

I can understand your case, I myself prefer to use capeable auxilia cavalry as the romans (I think Brihenten should do the job).

Baktrians have the best horses.

If you think about it, what use would cavalry be in any city battle anyway? The narrow streets prevent charges being effective and it is hard to cohesively withdraw quickly.

EB is accurate in that horses in those times were generally charge and withdraw forces. The lack of stirrups meant that they couldn't effectively fight hand to hand with infantry, so they basically charged at them, turned around and charged again.

My advice - don't bring cavalry to a city battle (or use them only sparingly), and save them for the open field, where they can turn battles for you.

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Originally Posted by Frontline1944

Which leads me to pose this question: if a certain faction even just one unit of cavalry that performs well in its role (e.g. Eqvites Extraordinarii for medium cavalry, Campanians for skirmishers), why do people complain of a lack of/poor-quality cavalry? Surely one can simply mass-produce that one well-performing unit.

I know that the Getai can't boast a wide variety of cavalry, but I simply field a large number of Tarabostes (and Traikioi Prodromoi when fighting on any Eastern fronts) and my need for cavalry is fulfilled.

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Maybe the point is they would lose cavalry engagements against their better counterparts? Charging the back of enemy formations is only really possible if the enemy can't stop you using his own cavalry. Unless he has already suicided his cavalry on your infantry, but even the AI is not always so stupid.

There's also the question of effectiveness when engaging ranged units, some of which can fight pretty well. I've seen Toxotai Kretikoi rout the medium Greek hippeis.

Yeah, maybe you can simply bring more weak cavalry to do the job, but that complicates logistics and is quite detrimental when you are facing a full stack and need enough meat to hold the line. Otherwise, there sometimes just isn't enough time to rout the enemy before they rout you. I find that enemy units might not rout when charged in the back when they haven't taken enough casualties or aren't facing even enough odds as it were.

I suppose, but I usually don't allow my cavalry to engage the enemy cavalry without sending in spearmen/heavy infantry first.

Works against the AI, but not against humans. You usually either do MAD where you ignore each other's cavalry. OR someone gets psyched out when one player starts to flank the other and they move their cavalry to defend their rear.

Either way, infantry are not effective anti-cav units except the really fast light infantry option which are decent at denial. The cavalry is just too fast and you can't afford to defend everything unless you have lots of men(Roman Triangle of Win(tm) :-p ). If you do use infantry denial, a human opponent will just draw them out far away and then go around them so don't go chasing.

The ideal counter for enemy cavalry are archers ball + heavy infantry circle + your own heavy cav to force the enemy cav to get in range to defend their infantry.

Here is also a secret: While cav is effective by its charge value alone, its charge + numbers that wins they day. The combined morale hits of surround, outnumbered, and lots of guys just died will pretty much break anything including quality fresh infantry.

Ah, now I can see why people would care so greatly about the relative quality of their faction's cavalry. I never bothered to play online.

You should go and join the tournement. It'll be a fun experience.

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Originally Posted by Frontline1944

I suppose, but I usually don't allow my cavalry to engage the enemy cavalry without sending in spearmen/heavy infantry first.

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How do you catch them?

There's just no guarantee it'll work out, I guess, unless you have something about as fast.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Baktrians have the best horses.

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Ney,:no: No one can challenge Pahlav Cataphracts.

Baktria are the strongest faction, they have Cataphracts, phalanxes, foot and horse archers, plus armoured indian elephants.

so Pahlav can beat baktria in a cavalry duel but in a full scale war no faction can challenge her.
that is why I always allow them to conquer India, while they are busy to conquer India, I finish my war with AS then the worst Pahlavan war starts baktrian campaign. :whip: 1 victory / 1 defeat is my normal ratio... but I normally have 9 victory / 1 defeat , winning ratio against AS.
Though I now how to add pezotharoi to pahlava, I use mercenary pezotharoi (hellenic medium phalanx) for historical issue/ I am blitzer in fact :laugh4:.

An interesting thing that I ahve recently noticed about cavalry is that heavy roman cavalry has equivalent stats to medium greek cavalry which has equvalent stats to kambojas which are light cavalry right over on the most eastern portion of the map.

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Originally Posted by miotas

An interesting thing that I ahve recently noticed about cavalry is that heavy roman cavalry has equivalent stats to medium greek cavalry which has equvalent stats to kambojas which are light cavalry right over on the most eastern portion of the map.

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What do you mean with "medium greek cavalry"? Prodromoi or Hippeis? It's a huge difference between them. If you mean Hippeis, then I can assure you, that the stats mean nothing, cause Hippeis can not couch their lances. Some players even go so far to count all cavalry units, that can not couch their spears/lances as crap. And if you ask me, there is some truth in that, what they say.
Comparing a cavalrymen that can couch their lances with cavalrymen that can not, is difficult or maybe even impossible.

Perhaps Hippeis and Equites Extraordinarii would act similar in melee (if their stats are really that equa), but their charges are like white and black. Equites Extraordinarii are a far better charger than Hippeis and to deliver devastating charges is (IMO) the main task of cavalry (without skirmish weapons of course). Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.

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Originally Posted by Atraphoenix

Ney,:no: No one can challenge Pahlav Cataphracts.

Baktria are the strongest faction, they have Cataphracts, phalanxes, foot and horse archers, plus armoured indian elephants.

so Pahlav can beat baktria in a cavalry duel but in a full scale war no faction can challenge her.
that is why I always allow them to conquer India, while they are busy to conquer India, I finish my war with AS then the worst Pahlavan war starts baktrian campaign. :whip: 1 victory / 1 defeat is my normal ratio... but I normally have 9 victory / 1 defeat , winning ratio against AS.
Though I now how to add pezotharoi to pahlava, I use mercenary pezotharoi (hellenic medium phalanx) for historical issue/ I am blitzer in fact :laugh4:.

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I dunno about that. I tested the Baktrian Late Bodyguard vs a full strength Parthian Late Catank unit and the bodyguard won back in EB1.1.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

I dunno about that. I tested the Baktrian Late Bodyguard vs a full strength Parthian Late Catank unit and the bodyguard won back in EB1.1.

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I think the Bartix Cavalery didn't count, but I made similar experinces with them. They are a bit overpowered in my opinion, but that's because they are a Bartix cavalry after all (of course only a medium cavalry, if the EB team would ever include a Bartix heavy cavalry, nobody would have a chance against it). Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

I dunno about that. I tested the Baktrian Late Bodyguard vs a full strength Parthian Late Catank unit and the bodyguard won back in EB1.1.

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do not compare bodyguards, they are tanks men :laugh4:
With girivpandar (late armoured catas) and late pahlav bodyguards I can destroy even Argyraspides from frontal charge.

hello people, i like extraordinari becouse first they look beutyfull :P :)
And if used in a proper manner they are efective as any other cavalary, of course acording to my game experience.
As someone once said, all units has his worth and value, and all are very efective if used as they should be used. Equites are a cavalry hit a run strategy they will die in a prolonged mellee their strengh lies on their charge and impact, the better the charge bonnus the more enemies will fall,Also the strengh of cav lies in their movement, if they stay put they are as good as death. if you use good those guys you sometimes will be able to not lose any single horseman wich is also crucial in long and far campaings.Of course you may say that are better cavalary but for the romanoi they are the better at least untill you have prateorian cav. As for online i dont yet play EB, but as for other mods and in rome they cavalry should used in this way even kataphrakts, are vulnerable to sarissas or spears, as for the archers it depends on heavy armoured cav it wount work much. the trick i find in the armies is to use every single unit in conjunction :P