Couple of EB gameplay questions/issues

Not sure if this is the right subforum, but figured it was close enough. I just recently started into my first EB campaign (v1.2), as Epeiros, figuring they would be a challenge but very doable, considering I've beaten vanilla a few times on VH/VH. Wrong. I'm playing on VH campaign/H battle (huge unit sizes) and getting my ass kicked constantly. I'm about 15 years in and am barely holding on against the combined onslaught of Makedonia and the KH, who apparently allied even though they both refused time and again with me. Some of these battles are ridiculous - I know EB ups the difficulty level and that AI units get some morale/combat boosts on hard, but I've had things like one unit of peltasts meleeing three of my hoplite units to death. The morale on these enemy units seems to be through the roof, too, because it typically takes about 80-90% casualties for a unit to rout, even when their general's dead and they're surrounded. Mass routs don't seem to happen like they did in vanilla, either, and I wind up having to beat each individual unit to within an inch of its life before it finally turns and runs. Money is a constant issue, too - I'm never able to recruit more than one unit every season or two and I can't seem to figure out an effective way of upgrading my economy. I see other people posting things like Epeiros AARs on VH/VH showing them conquering Greece in twenty years and I can't see any way that would be possible, so am I doing something wrong or is there some other problem?

One other random Epeiros question - is it possible to replace your elephants?

M battle. A lot of work has gone into the unit-balancing.

And go slowly, build up your economy. You've got the time. Gameplay is slower than vanilla.


Replacing? I guess you mean retraining? Yes, lvl5 factional MIC in, IIRC, Ambrakia.

Except you are extremely excellent tactician, you should stick on medium Battle difficulty...
A unit of peltasts meleeing 3 units of your hoplites unto death? I have a hypothesis:
1) This was Peltastai Makedonikoi, they are elite infantry, so don't get surprised... They can chew even Hypaspistai...
2) You play on hard, the enemy got +4 attack, and Peltastai are good melee troops anyway... didn't get surprised if your Hoplitai Haploi get meleed to death... (I don't believe if it was Standard Hoplitai)

recommended difficulty is VH/M.

The morale was increased to make the battles last longer. Charging the rear is the quickest way to cause a rout, but even then its not insta rout like vanilla.

The money issues increase the difficulty of the game and make it more more fun. No more one stack per city like vanilla. Takeing a few cities quickly and then disbanding your most expensive units is a good way to solve money problems, pella would be a good target for epiros, plus pella has those graves you can loot for some serious cash if you're that way inclined, 20000 IIRC.

I think you need a top level MIC in your capital for elephantes.

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Originally Posted by miotas

you can loot for some serious cash if you're that way inclined, 20000 IIRC

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That was a barbarous statement. No true Hellen would destroy a wonder, hoewever grave the situation.

Maion

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

That was a barbarous statement. No true Hellen would destroy a wonder, hoewever grave the situation.

Maion

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Of course no true hellen would, but those epeiotes are a bit weird if you ask me:tongue: And I did get a perverse sense of satisfaction as the sauro's once when I rampaged all through greece and italy knocking down every building in every town and city.

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Originally Posted by miotas

And I did get a perverse sense of satisfaction as the sauro's once when I rampaged all through greece and italy knocking down every building in every town and city.

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:angry: :no: :thumbsdown: :sad: :shame:

Maion

well it was gauls on payroll of Phirrus who plunder the graves, Still for helping your issue, im doing battles on hard i find realy fun, you just a have to be a little creative with the units, use slingers and archers wisely, they can change things with pacience, also they cheap, and will get more experience in time. a better thing to do is upgrading your economy, build at start roads, ports markets etc the bigger the city is, the more taxes, more monney, raise taxes is also good, but understand one thing only by having more cities you will have more monney. Build buildings that give monney at the start, later on it will give you a boost, trade agreements as much you can. i had a hard time playing with KH, but now , slowly i beat the crap out of makedonians, in the biggining with only an army with generals and some slingers and archers, and levies...lol no cav... i win against makedonians on hard, now i just take pela, thermon, have halicarnassus and kydonia, and im rich as ever, you just have to take it slow with pacience, try to not going in to debt. Discard some units you dont need. it will be usefull.

the thebeans looted the Delphoi oracle treasury and Greeks generaly exandrapodised entire greek cities with little or no remorse... in war Greeks were as cruel as any other "barbarian" ... "civilised" ,"refined" and yet so brutal... :yes::yes::yes:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

That was a barbarous statement. No true Hellen would destroy a wonder, hoewever grave the situation.

Maion

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WHO SAID BARBAROUS??? Nah, destroying tombs is a good way to make extra cash... plus it's funny, especially for Romans and Hellenes ones (ok guys, we all mean in-game hmmm! nobody get me wrong, I'm not necro-fanatic!) and try destroying them with a cudgel! (Go to the north... Sweboz will lend you one!)

Lol, in a single campaign I disband a total of less than 5 units with decent fighting force. And I still end up with good economy and a world thats mine!:laugh4:

~Fluvius

I normally disband all boats immediately, and expand rapidly for the first 5-7 turns. after that, i'm fine.


Btw, Maion, I normally keep the tombs intact when I conquered sacked razed Pella to the ground. Is there value to the tombs? I'll think of plundering it someday.

I just sent my starting fleets to destroy the enemy fleets, why disband if you can put them to use? If I win it kills the enemy fleet and lowers my upkeep, plus I have cheap transport. If I lose I have weakened the enemy navy and decreased costs.

~Fluvius

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Originally Posted by Fluvius Camillus

I just sent my starting fleets to destroy the enemy fleets, why disband if you can put them to use? If I win it kills the enemy fleet and lowers my upkeep, plus I have cheap transport. If I lose I have weakened the enemy navy and decreased costs.

~Fluvius

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Good point. When I play the Romaioi, I send my starting fleet straight for Britain, in order to get my diplomat, who in the meantime has made peace with Aedui and Arverni and forged an alliance with the Swêboz, over there (and back again in the same turn). It's not really a game winning move but it is better than disbanding the fleet, which will get sunk by pirates anyway during the next few turns.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

When I play the Romaioi

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Well, you know, you can't really make a game-winning move when you do that.

Maion

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Well, you know, you can't really make a game-winning move when you do that.

Maion

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Indeed, because the game is already won before you start.

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

That was a barbarous statement. No true Hellen would destroy a wonder, hoewever grave the situation.

Maion

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Hey I don't like destroying wonders. I might need that later for when I don't come to sack your city for the gold in your unimportant civic buildings (i sometimes leave the barracks depending on how big it is so I have something to fight! I love a good fight you know?)

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

Indeed, because the game is already won before you start.

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Ha-ha-ha. But I didn't expect any better from a Philoromaios, truth said.

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

Hey I don't like destroying wonders. I might need that later for when I don't come to sack your city for the gold in your unimportant civic buildings (i sometimes leave the barracks depending on how big it is so I have something to fight! I love a good fight you know?)

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Ah, a barbaros with a brain. I'm impressed, really I am.

Maion

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Ah, a barbaros with a brain. I'm impressed, really I am.

Maion

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Naughty Maion, didn't Alexander sack Persepolis?

I think it is reasonable (especially for RP purposes) to sack the wonders of certain other cultures, especially hostile ones.

Personally I'll RP the Iberians sort of venerating Jupiter when they take Rome, but Germans and Gauls sack the crap out of it. Likewise Gauls in Hellas do what Gauls do best. Pontioans and Armenians make sensible and respectful choices concerning wonders, but Getai can lose their temper (they might leave Troy intact but the Mausoleum is a juicy target for a poor Drapanista).

When my Bartix go places in India they are all "we totally respect Shiva and Buddha" but I imagine if my macedonians got there they might be less tolerant and more likely to get drunk and "accidently" burn down the reliquary to Buddhas toe or whatever. Just for RP purposes of course.

I'm playing Epeiros on H/H right now, and it's fairly easy, considering this is my first ever EB and TW campaign. I guess VH campaign would make it even more difficult with more enemy units, but diplomatically this game is probably the same as a VH one anyway.

Here's the thing about Hard battles: Hammer and anvil works wonders, even with non-phalangitai or hoplitai line infantry. And the other thing is, kill the enemy general as soon as you can. Captains don't seem to matter that much, so no worries about them. They seem to get replaced upon being killed anyway. But if you see a starred general alive, yeah, don't be surprised if enemy units don't rout till they're almost entirely dead. Your own general, with some help, can probably do this job even before the melee starts, unless the enemy general is infantry. Still, even with an enemy general, a massed cavalry charge to the rear seems to work, with something like 3-4 cavalry units on one unit, especially if they include your general's bodyguards.

Anyway, I don't know how you play and I'm not an expert or anything, so I can't say too much more. I like Epeiros, if only because of elephants in Ambrakia and its history (i.e. kicking some Romaioi ass). Some people would advise you to disband the expensive elephants at the start, but why would you do such a thing to the poor harmless beasts? Err... harmless to you, that is. Hopefully. Use them as a trump card, the ultimate hammer, in the early battles for a little blitzing. Doesn't matter if most of them die - that would actually save you money - they would hopefully have served their purpose in the first few turns. Disband all but one fleet instead. With a few mines, your would certainly be in the black.

Another thing is your phalangitai will never compare in class to the ones the Diadochoi can field, so don't count on that. In my experience, Chaonion Agema can't win against Ptolemaic Agema even with a little elevation advantage. So as Epeiros, hammer and anvil is even more crucial, as your infantry can really only hold the line and not win all my themselves sometimes. Moreover, with limited AoR, it's going to be more difficult to retrain and field your elites, so you will be forced to rely on local troops and mercs more. It makes for a more varied play, though. With proper execution of hammer-and-anvil and some clever manuevering according to the terrain, you can definitely beat bigger armies on this difficulty with a decent enough army composition.

Lastly, I found the Romaioi pretty tough early on, since Italy was quite difficult to reinforce. Things became easier after I shipped the elephants to Italy. They squish barbaroi. But it was a pretty long war of attrition for a while before it started to snowball in my favour. The good news, I guess, is that you don't need MoT and start with a foothold in Italy, so you can crush those pesky Romaioi before they become too troublesome without a worry.

VH is much harder with the Celts and Germanians. They rely more on just roughing it with the other battle line, so the difficulty really factors in on it. Hellenics have an easy job, since phalangites are practically inpenetrable. As Epeiros, you also have cheap AP infantry, and very good light lancers from the start.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

As Epeiros, you also have cheap AP infantry, and very good light lancers from the start.

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Watch who you are calling cheap, you lousy, not-so super mini-market. But yes, those Illyrioi Paraktioi (Illyrian Coastal Levies) are quite handy. AP infantry can always take on disproportionate in quality units.

That said, my strategy for the early parts of my Eperios game was to have the Phyletichoi Illyrioi (Illyrian Levy Spearmen) or Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites) hold the centre while Illyrioi Hippeis (Illyrian Light Cavalry) swiftly wheeled around and charged into the backs of enemies. Countless Roman Triarii and Principe stacks perished in such way. Very easy game it was.

Hold the line? hold what line? No line holds Sweboz... We charge, run threw and kill kill kill :whip: :smash::smash::smash:

Yeah, I restarted my campaign on VH/M and it's been much easier. I immediately abandoned Taras, brought my men there to the mainland and disbanded my navy, and proceeded to blitz Makedon and KH (sacking the Royal Tombs to keep me afloat financially but leaving the rest of the wonders). Left Makedon alive on Mytilene and KH on Rhodos, and both of them are currently picking at Arche Seleukia in Anatolia while I consolidate in the Balkans. I'm planning to use spies to cause Taras to revolt back to me for an Italian foothold once the Punic Wars start, and hoping the Getai don't break their alliance in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by aelflune

I'm playing Epeiros on H/H right now, and it's fairly easy, considering this is my first ever EB and TW campaign. I guess VH campaign would make it even more difficult with more enemy units, but diplomatically this game is probably the same as a VH one anyway.

Here's the thing about Hard battles: Hammer and anvil works wonders, even with non-phalangitai or hoplitai line infantry. And the other thing is, kill the enemy general as soon as you can. Captains don't seem to matter that much, so no worries about them. They seem to get replaced upon being killed anyway. But if you see a starred general alive, yeah, don't be surprised if enemy units don't rout till they're almost entirely dead. Your own general, with some help, can probably do this job even before the melee starts, unless the enemy general is infantry. Still, even with an enemy general, a massed cavalry charge to the rear seems to work, with something like 3-4 cavalry units on one unit, especially if they include your general's bodyguards.

Anyway, I don't know how you play and I'm not an expert or anything, so I can't say too much more. I like Epeiros, if only because of elephants in Ambrakia and its history (i.e. kicking some Romaioi ass). Some people would advise you to disband the expensive elephants at the start, but why would you do such a thing to the poor harmless beasts? Err... harmless to you, that is. Hopefully. Use them as a trump card, the ultimate hammer, in the early battles for a little blitzing. Doesn't matter if most of them die - that would actually save you money - they would hopefully have served their purpose in the first few turns. Disband all but one fleet instead. With a few mines, your would certainly be in the black.

Another thing is your phalangitai will never compare in class to the ones the Diadochoi can field, so don't count on that. In my experience, Chaonion Agema can't win against Ptolemaic Agema even with a little elevation advantage. So as Epeiros, hammer and anvil is even more crucial, as your infantry can really only hold the line and not win all my themselves sometimes. Moreover, with limited AoR, it's going to be more difficult to retrain and field your elites, so you will be forced to rely on local troops and mercs more. It makes for a more varied play, though. With proper execution of hammer-and-anvil and some clever manuevering according to the terrain, you can definitely beat bigger armies on this difficulty with a decent enough army composition.

Lastly, I found the Romaioi pretty tough early on, since Italy was quite difficult to reinforce. Things became easier after I shipped the elephants to Italy. They squish barbaroi. But it was a pretty long war of attrition for a while before it started to snowball in my favour. The good news, I guess, is that you don't need MoT and start with a foothold in Italy, so you can crush those pesky Romaioi before they become too troublesome without a worry.

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I'd been using hammer and anvil strikes gratuitously (as always) in my VH/H campaign, and the damn enemy units would just sit there not routing and not dying. Their morale and staying power was through the roof, which was frustrating beyond belief.

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Originally Posted by option

I'd been using hammer and anvil strikes gratuitously (as always) in my VH/H campaign, and the damn enemy units would just sit there not routing and not dying. Their morale and staying power was through the roof, which was frustrating beyond belief.

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That's weird. From my experience, it works perfectly well. Did you make sure your cavalry has enough distance to charge? And you need a good charge value. Equites Romani, for example, are pathetic and wouldn't cause routs a lot of the time. You might also have to charge a few times, depending on the units you are fighting and whether the enemy general is still alive and what he's like. If you could give some specific examples, it would be good.

I think it's unfortunate that you gave up on Hard battles. I think Medium would be too easy considering the AI pretty much falls for the same tricks all the time, and once you start using tactics like denying your flanks and etc, enemy armies about double yours in size wouldn't be impossible to beat. On medium, I imagine an army even larger than that wouldn't be a problem on open ground :smash: