A Question to Christians

Why does someone who devotes their lives to their Christian faith while continually sacrificing and helping others deserve to die at a such a young age? I just don't understand god's "logic here". What I'm talking about is an old RA of mine. She was recently killed in a car crash along with her boyfriend. Now this girl honestly was one of the nicest, religious, and helpful people I have ever met. Why on earth would the all power god allow her life to be taken like this? I know things like this happen every day, but this really hits closer to home. I know so many low lives who really don't contribute anything to society. Why not take their life instead of this wonderful girls?

I'd really like to hear your logic on this one and all the other meaningless deaths that happen daily.

You're digging around the age-old question, "Why does an omnipotent God allow bad things to happen to good people?" Believe it or not, this debate is older than the internets.

The Book of Job is a great place to start.

She was so good that God wanted to have her besides him. That way she could help even more people from above.






Disclaimer: I'm not religious. The above was something said to me by someone I do not remember when I asked a similar question.

1. God Works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform
2. Going to a better place
3. Rewards will be in heaven
4. Part of his infinite plan

I'm sure there are others...

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

You're digging around the age-old question, "Why does an omnipotent God allow bad things to happen to good people?" Believe it or not, this debate is older than the internets.

The Book of Job is a great place to start.

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Hm but Book of Job is a bit tricky as it depends on what one focuses on: The bit about staying the course no matter what or the idea that a supernatural being is willing to smash up your life in a bet with another supernatural being. The former is good for he who already believes and the latter makes the non-believer shake his head in disgust...or something in between.


CBR

Nevertheless, Job is the most sustained meditation on injustice and horror befalling God-fearing people in the entire Bible. Nobody said that it needs to be easy to understand.

That is true. At least us non-believers won't have to fear getting involved in such a bet. :beam:


CBR

All we have to decide is what to do with the time given to us. I think she decided to spend her time well.

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Originally Posted by Ice

Why does someone who devotes their lives to their Christian faith while continually sacrificing and helping others deserve to die at a such a young age? I just don't understand god's "logic here". What I'm talking about is an old RA of mine. She was recently killed in a car crash along with her boyfriend. Now this girl honestly was one of the nicest, religious, and helpful people I have ever met. Why on earth would the all power god allow her life to be taken like this? I know things like this happen every day, but this really hits closer to home. I know so many low lives who really don't contribute anything to society. Why not take their life instead of this wonderful girls?

I'd really like to hear your logic on this one and all the other meaningless deaths that happen daily.

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Your question presumes two things.

1. That God makes decisive intervention in the lives of individuals, rather than guiding intervention.

2. That God differentiates between those he deems worthy of saving and those he deems not worthy of saving.

Neither are the acts of a Just and Loving Universal Father, which is the traditional view of the Christian God.

I do not for a moment fail to acknowledge the tragedy of your friend's death, but I believe that God loves universally, and that he has given us all free will. In order to save your friend he would have had to violate the free will of others, perhaps many others, in doing so he would not love universally, nor would he be just.

So, to answer your question directly, God did not save her, not because he does not love her, but because he loves everyone else as well. Unfortunately, that means he has to let us do stupid and hurtful things to ourselves and each other.

After reading some of Job, god basically tortures a pious man just to prove to Satan that Job still loves god without his possessions. :dizzy2: What a loving guy.

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God's answer underscores that Job shares the world with numerous powerful and remarkable creatures, creatures with lives and needs of their own, for whom God must provide, and the young of some hunger in a way that can only be satisfied by taking the lives of others

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I'm a bit confused because I thought the reason he was being tortured was to a prove a point to Satan.

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Originally Posted by Ice

After reading some of Job, god basically tortures a pious man just to prove to Satan that Job still loves god without his possessions. :dizzy2: What a loving guy.



I'm a bit confused because I thought the reason he was being tortured was to a prove a point to Satan.

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The conversations in heaven are generally considered to be allegorical, to illustrate Job's piety. To suggest the human author had access to the minutes from the Court of Heaven is patently absurd.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The conversations in heaven are generally considered to be allegorical, to illustrate Job's piety. To suggest the human author had access to the minutes from the Court of Heaven is patently absurd.

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So much a atheist like me could say to something like this....I wont though.


If the OP is genuinely looking for a answer, your probaly get several. Most likely they will be "God has a plan for all of us" or something like that.

From a Buddhist point of view, death is temporary. I don't know whether it has the possibility of comforting you, but the cycle of life and death is something that keep occuring; think "re-incarnation". This is, as of the moment, impossible to check with scientific method, but this cycle can be broken and enlightenment achieved.

Perhaps she had done such; Kukai said that you need not be a monk or a Buddhist to achieve enlightenment, that it is possible for everyone in this life.

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Originally Posted by Ice

Why does someone who devotes their lives to their Christian faith while continually sacrificing and helping others deserve to die at a such a young age? I just don't understand god's "logic here". What I'm talking about is an old RA of mine. She was recently killed in a car crash along with her boyfriend. Now this girl honestly was one of the nicest, religious, and helpful people I have ever met. Why on earth would the all power god allow her life to be taken like this? I know things like this happen every day, but this really hits closer to home. I know so many low lives who really don't contribute anything to society. Why not take their life instead of this wonderful girls?

I'd really like to hear your logic on this one and all the other meaningless deaths that happen daily.

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This is a world of life and death. New life cannot be made without old life ending. God never promised that those who believe in Him will be invincible. This world short, it is what happens after this world that counts. People who do not believe in that put so much importance on this world, but the Christians can live knowing that no matter what happens in this life, they will inherit the earth and live forever in a world without pain or greed. This world is just here to test our faith anyway, so it is not so important. I am a decreasingly religious man of late, but I think that will answer your question.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

So, to answer your question directly, God did not save her, not because he does not love her, but because he loves everyone else as well. Unfortunately, that means he has to let us do stupid and hurtful things to ourselves and each other.

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Why?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The conversations in heaven are generally considered to be allegorical, to illustrate Job's piety. To suggest the human author had access to the minutes from the Court of Heaven is patently absurd.

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Philosophically speaking, there is a difference between the highly unlikely and the absurd. One can posit a way for man and God to interact, one cannot posit a way for a living man to directly witness that which happens in Heaven, because it is closed to living men.

Though I recognise your point.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

This is a world of life and death. New life cannot be made without old life ending. God never promised that those who believe in Him will be invincible. This world short, it is what happens after this world that counts. People who do not believe in that put so much importance on this world, but the Christians can live knowing that no matter what happens in this life, they will inherit the earth and live forever in a world without pain or greed. This world is just here to test our faith anyway, so it is not so important. I am a decreasingly religious man of late, but I think that will answer your question.

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I always find this view deeply depressing, it implies that this life has no value, that our joys, sorrows, loves etc. have no meaning. If that were true then not only would life itself be a cruel joke on the part of God, it would be a useless test of character as well.

After all, if life on Earth has no intrinsic meaning then once one realises this one would "fail" God's test because your mortal existence would be nothing more than beurocratic box-ticking in your application to eternal life.

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Originally Posted by Ice

Why?

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Ever seen what happens to a child if you indulge it's every whim? Keep it safe from every danger? Never let it go out in the sun?

What value has a puppet without someone to pull the strings?

Without free will we are completely and utterly worthless, in every sense, we are reduced to machines performing a pre-set function.

Such a conception of hummanity is not compatable with Christianity.

God thought she was so good, he decided to reward her early for such a good service with eternal paradise.

Is dying such a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Without free will we are completely and utterly worthless, in every sense, we are reduced to machines performing a pre-set function.

Such a conception of hummanity is not compatable with Christianity.

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Not to be overly pedantic, but free will versus predestination is not a settled matter that all Christian faiths aree upon.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Ever seen what happens to a child if you indulge it's every whim? Keep it safe from every danger? Never let it go out in the sun?

What value has a puppet without someone to pull the strings?

Without free will we are completely and utterly worthless, in every sense, we are reduced to machines performing a pre-set function.

Such a conception of hummanity is not compatable with Christianity.

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With almighty powers, you would not need pain and extreme suffering to create meaning. Most people make their way throughout life witouth getting eaten by a lion or toasted by a nuclear bomb, or any other extraordinary painful experience I'd rather not go through.

There are all sorts of ways in which God will show himself through those who believe in Him. Some Christians will go through life happily with God sustaining them in their faith and being merciful and generous towards them... you know the type, big house, happy marriage, attends BBQ's and singalongs with the local Baptist church, dies happy in old age etc - it's God showing just the shadow of his promises to whoever believes in Him. For others, they might have a life devoted to serving God, say for example a missionary working in a jungle or in a hostile environment - it's God showing the changes He makes in people so they can be a light to the world. For others, they might honour God through a life of suffering and humility, with the extremity varying from monks withdrawing from the world, to the sort of stuff that happens to Job - it's God showing the strength of faith regardless of the persecution people face for it. And of course there's lots of mixtures of these in different people.

Every single Christian will bear good fruit in their lives, through whatever means. From the description you gave of this person (I'm not sure what 'RA' means), she clearly did. It's harder to tell what purpose such a sudden and unexpected death might serve... if it was a more drawn out death it could have been to show a life of suffering as mentioned above, but obviously dying suddenly in a car crash will not have served this person herself for any purpose. But the Bible does say that Christians are "vessells unto honour", and so I think that certainly any major events in a Christians life will in some way serve to glorify God, which should be their purpose. Maybe after the trauma of her death is felt by her relatives, they will seek God... that would be gaining eternal life as a result of a temporal death. Who knows what could have happened as a result of it?

Harsh as that maybe seems, remember in Christianity everything is in absolute terms... compared to a person's salvation, what else matters? God is not being brutal when Christians face such tribulations, because part of the nature of the faith which He gives us is that we become totally selfless, and will gladly sacrifice our lives in the name of godliness (which is what our suffering is in the name of). For all Job faced he persevered to the end, as God always knew he would, and now he's sitting in heaven with your friend, with his life having been an inspiration to many Christians and perhaps even some other people. Whatever the horrors we think they faced when our thinking is clouded by the flesh and the world, they will be reconciled to God, and thinking "vanity, vanity, all else is vanity!".

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Not to be overly pedantic, but free will versus predestination is not a settled matter that all Christian faiths aree upon.

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I'm well aware of that, but I have yet to encounter a theory of predestination which does not contradict the conception of God as "Universal Father".

Edit: Amd here's Rhy to prove both our points.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Not to be overly pedantic, but free will versus predestination is not a settled matter that all Christian faiths aree upon.

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Thank you! :2thumbsup:

Have a ballon! :balloon:

Partly for what you said, partly as a bribe for my double post...

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I always find this view deeply depressing, it implies that this life has no value, that our joys, sorrows, loves etc. have no meaning. If that were true then not only would life itself be a cruel joke on the part of God, it would be a useless test of character as well.

After all, if life on Earth has no intrinsic meaning then once one realises this one would "fail" God's test because your mortal existence would be nothing more than beurocratic box-ticking in your application to eternal life.

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Not really. While we have this life, it is all that we have. The assurance of something greater allows us to devote our lives to making the world a better place for others, and not worry so much about petty things, which lets you enjoy life more.
This world is not some sick test chamber that God set up. He created it perfect, without new life and without death. The sins of Adam and Eve cursed them with death, which made new life necassary. God blessed us with free will, and we abuse that and sin of our own will. Because of that Jesus had to die for our sins. That is why a say it is a test of sorts. Jesus has given us the gift of eternal life which is free for us to accept.
Your Christian friend probably would be a lot less distraught at the idea of dying than most athiests who only have this world to live for, and if she is correct, has an eternity to live.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Not really. While we have this life, it is all that we have. The assurance of something greater allows us to devote our lives to making the world a better place for others, and not worry so much about petty things, which lets you enjoy life more.
This world is not some sick test chamber that God set up. He created it perfect, without new life and without death. The sins of Adam and Eve cursed them with death, which made new life necassary. God blessed us with free will, and we abuse that and sin of our own will. Because of that Jesus had to die for our sins. That is why a say it is a test of sorts. Jesus has given us the gift of eternal life which is free for us to accept.
Your Christian friend probably would be a lot less distraught at the idea of dying than most athiests who only have this world to live for, and if she is correct, has an eternity to live.

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See, now that reads quite differently to your last post. For what it's worth I agree with the above; more or less.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Edit: Amd here's Rhy to prove both our points.

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Yo. Anyway, I didn't come to start the Rhy v PVC show again (my name goes first btw), I made a bigger post just before yours which doesn't go into the predestination stuff (just making sure you know its there, sometimes I miss posts made a minute before I post mine).

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Yo. Anyway, I didn't come to start the Rhy v PVC show again (my name goes first btw), I made a bigger post just before yours which doesn't go into the predestination stuff (just making sure you know its there, sometimes I miss posts made a minute before I post mine).

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Yeah I read it, and it's full of predestination and subversion of free will.

Also, my name goes first, I have more facial hair, and a BA.:beam:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Yeah I read it, and it's full of predestination and subversion of free will.

Also, my name goes first, I have more facial hair, and a BA.:beam:

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And that's the way it should be, honest and God-centred!

Also does BA stand for Batchelor of Arts? So you've completed Uni?

@OP:

Who are we to understand God? Also, it's probably important to note that, as many already said, death isn't exactly a bad thing from most Christian perspectives.

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Originally Posted by Ice

Why does someone who devotes their lives to their Christian faith while continually sacrificing and helping others deserve to die at a such a young age? I just don't understand god's "logic here". What I'm talking about is an old RA of mine. She was recently killed in a car crash along with her boyfriend. Now this girl honestly was one of the nicest, religious, and helpful people I have ever met. Why on earth would the all power god allow her life to be taken like this? I know things like this happen every day, but this really hits closer to home. I know so many low lives who really don't contribute anything to society. Why not take their life instead of this wonderful girls?

I'd really like to hear your logic on this one and all the other meaningless deaths that happen daily.

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I doubt anyone can answer your questions in a manner that will prove satisfactory. Speaking from personal experience I can say that one shouldn't allow this feeling of injustice & sorrow to develop into anger & hate. One can't help how they feel, but one can control how they think. Life is what it is, and there are no pat answers as to why bad things happen to good people sometimes.