Oh the woes of those poor, hunted billionares...

The lol-meter is going through the roof here in Norway these days, a nice substitute for our complete lack of sun...

You see, the situation is that our richest man, Stein Erik Hagen, owner of a chain of grocery stores and supermarkets, is fleeing the country. Why? The tax burden is so high that, in his own words, "there comes a time when you either have to sell everything and quit, or pack your stuff and move somewhere else". He points his chubby finger at the current socialist government, and says they're "out to get him and people like him".

So, what's the extortionate tax the government has imposed on him then? Well, this being Norway, everyone's tax information is freely available on the net, and a quick search reveals that he paid a grand total of...

10 042 360 NOK in 2007, and 7 959 357 NOK in 2006(numbers for 2008 isn't available). This is a guy with a tax value of 1,2 billion, and an estimated wealth of around 8 billion...

The standard tax rate in Norway is 28%, that's what I pay in taxes. Now, for him to pay the same tax as I do, he couldn't be making more than 30 million in 2007. A guy worth 8 billion. Making 30 million per year. Who builds palaces, has an army of servants and gives savings-advice like "don't buy new shirts every day, send them to dry cleaning in London instead"(true quote). Sounds likely? Nope. The real figure is probably some hundred million a year. So.... The tax he pays is what? 4-5%? And he's whining about that being extortionate?

The clue meter is reading zero. Good riddance.

I don't get the match, 28% that is grand total? Obama is going to hate you when he finds out, that would put you on the list of tax-havens and you aren't on it. I agree that he has nothing to complain about, and I find it rather tasteless when half the world is starving, doesn't sound like the kind of guy I would like to drink a beer with (nor champagne).

Yeah, I feel sorry for him, wherever he wants to go I expect not to let him in though(too many immigrants etc, you know what they say...), the world is really unfair... :shrug:

As dislikeable as he is the country is going to loose all of his taxes now. OK, for Norway this probably doesn't matter that much, but it does illustrate that you can't alter a system without the system reacting - hence why the 50% tax bracket in the UK might in fact reduce the amount of tax that is collected.

~:smoking:

:laugh4:

You mock the plight of this man and don't realize that you (all of you) will pay the price. Detroit didn't turn into a cesspool overnight. It began with poor tax policy. A similar situation is happening in Maryland. How did he make his fortune? Grocery stores and supermarkets? Hardly a villian.

I don't know the overall tax structure in Norway but I suspect the top marginal tax rate is more than 28%. Keep saying "good riddance" and you will say the same about many jobs in the future.

That's why we need the world government Vladimir, one tax for the rich and they cannot run away from it. :laugh4:

By the way, if you defend the freedom of the rich to go and live wherever they want, then why not that od the poor africans and mexicans to do the same thing?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

:laugh4:

You mock the plight of this man and don't realize that you (all of you) will pay the price. Detroit didn't turn into a cesspool overnight. It began with poor tax policy. A similar situation is happening in Maryland. How did he make his fortune? Grocery stores and supermarkets? Hardly a villian.

I don't know the overall tax structure in Norway but I suspect the top marginal tax rate is more than 28%. Keep saying "good riddance" and you will say the same about many jobs in the future.

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As he was hardly paying any taxes at all, I doubt we'll miss him. 10 million a year? Pocket money.

And the jobs he created stays in this country anyway, so....

The top taxes are more than 28%, yes. But I would've been more than happy if he just paid his 28%. That's the least you can expect, isn't it? We're all the same before the law, right? But the thing is, he didn't pay 28%, he didn't even pay anything close to it. He paid a few percent in taxes. And then whines when he has to pay a percent more. Again, good riddance.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The lol-meter is going through the roof here in Norway these days, a nice substitute for our complete lack of sun...

You see, the situation is that our richest man, Stein Erik Hagen, owner of a chain of grocery stores and supermarkets, is fleeing the country. Why? The tax burden is so high that, in his own words, "there comes a time when you either have to sell everything and quit, or pack your stuff and move somewhere else". He points his chubby finger at the current socialist government, and says they're "out to get him and people like him".

So, what's the extortionate tax the government has imposed on him then? Well, this being Norway, everyone's tax information is freely available on the net, and a quick search reveals that he paid a grand total of...

10 042 360 NOK in 2007, and 7 959 357 NOK in 2006(numbers for 2008 isn't available). This is a guy with a tax value of 1,2 billion, and an estimated wealth of around 8 billion...

The standard tax rate in Norway is 28%, that's what I pay in taxes. Now, for him to pay the same tax as I do, he couldn't be making more than 30 million in 2007. A guy worth 8 billion. Making 30 million per year. Who builds palaces, has an army of servants and gives savings-advice like "don't buy new shirts every day, send them to dry cleaning in London instead"(true quote). Sounds likely? Nope. The real figure is probably some hundred million a year. So.... The tax he pays is what? 4-5%? And he's whining about that being extortionate?

The clue meter is reading zero. Good riddance.

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I'm thinking you must have an odd tax structure with high marginal rates, but generous deductions/credits (even to the very wealthy? lol)

As an accountant, I'm interested in reading more information, if available, about how he went about paying only 4-5% of his income in a country with such high rates.

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Originally Posted by Husar

By the way, if you defend the freedom of the rich to go and live wherever they want, then why not that od the poor africans and mexicans to do the same thing?

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Oh, the historical fallacy of this statement. :book:

It's poor Africans that populated the world several times (and millennia) over. Poor Mexicans frequently travel with little restrictions to the US.

Are you saying that you think only rich people can move? :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Ice

I'm thinking you must have an odd tax structure with high marginal rates, but generous deductions/credits (even to the very wealthy? lol)

As an accountant, I'm interested in reading more information, if available, about how he went about paying only 4-5% of his income in a country with such high rates.

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Questionable accounting and loopholes is my best bet.

Heck, in 2006 his income was a grand total of zero...

Unfortunately, the only numbers open to the public are the total income, total amount paid in tax and the tax value of all assets, how those numbers were created are not...

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Oh, the historical fallacy of this statement. :book:

It's poor Africans that populated the world several times (and millennia) over. Poor Mexicans frequently travel with little restrictions to the US.

Are you saying that you think only rich people can move? :laugh4:

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No I'm not, you do make me wonder though why you have a fence and border patrols on your border to mexico and why you send mexicans who try to come over back. And why I always hear people should fix their own countries. This guy should stay and fix his own country, he's just a wuss who is running away and no country should accept him.

Monaco is looking good right now...

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Whereas a "poor mexican" is actually going to be a drain on the economy, what with being illegal and all--assuming you're talking about the illegal variety.

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I do dearly hope you are not saying that because of the supposed "one more immigrant=one less job for native". And I am not speaking of "Mexicans take jobs that Yanks won't". Sometimes they do, sometimes they do not. That is not the point however.

What I wish to point out is the so-called "lump of labour fallacy", one that the Economist will bash in its every issue.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

since all countries in the civilized world--the US included, accepts legal immigrants and treats them fairly--and at the same time these countries have always had restrictions on how many we will accept, and we always take the better qualified first. Nothing new here.

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Actually, we don't. It's been illegal to migrate to Norway for the last decades...

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

If you'd read my post in it's entirety, instead of just quoting a small peice of it, you'd see I was referring to Illegals and actually embrace the idea of LEGAL immigration.

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Nah, I read the post, and thought over, you have my word. I do not disagree with people online without reading about their position carefully. Nor did I assume you did not agree with legal immigration. Watch it, you seem to be touchy about being regarded as a xenophobe IMHO...


But anyway, you have a point on taxes, but the illegal immigrants do have to contribute to Social Security, which they get none of. But then those medical bills of course, that you mentioned... So it evens it out. That said, to say that "they take our jobs" is not accurate, and I bet a dollar for doughnut you had that in mind in your previous post. As for "shady employers" that is capitalism. Works better than anything else so far, but still with its flaws. Those blokes want higher margins, and so would you and me if we were in their position.

Although I would hardly call it a flaw. Those immigrants work for dimes and nickels, enabling the employers to lower their prices to undercut competition, to which the competition responds in like, creating much lower consumer prices. Not so bad, eh?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Whereas a "poor mexican" is actually going to be a drain on the economy, what with being illegal and all--assuming you're talking about the illegal variety.

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The poor Mexican wouldn't be a drain on the economy if the rich guy used his money to create a job for him. :idea2:

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Originally Posted by Husar

The poor Mexican wouldn't be a drain on the economy if the rich guy used his money to create a job for him. :idea2:

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Heh, how touching. Why the sarcasm? Aside from the fact that it would be a utopia.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Heh, how touching. Why the sarcasm? Aside from the fact that it would be a utopia.

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I'm not the one who said rich people use their money to create jobs for the poor, it's not my utopia.
I'm the guy who says tax the rich and give it to the poor in the form of welfare but make sure that jobs pay more than welfare(which should be some kind of minimum living standard). I wouldn't even mind a universal tax no matter the income but then someone who can afford his own bureaucrat should not be able to evade half or more of it.
Does democracy mean now that we all better do what our rich overlords want or we're all screwed?
I want my egalite and fraternite back, please.

That's why we need the world government Vladimir, one tax for the rich and they cannot run away from it.

Yep, no more tax havens to hide in, you pay your fair due...

Anyway im sure Norway will continue just fine whether or not Mr Scrooge's taxes are contributing.

It's about decency imho. You can be anything in any system. Capitalism could never exist without it, but thankfully most people happen to be decent people. That's it's succes.

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Yep, no more tax havens to hide in, you pay your fair due...

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Define fair. The trouble with that is why I'd prefer a flat percentage tax or one as close to flat as possible.

Call me crazy (or call me Susan) but I think that if you make a large amount of money in a country, the chances are it is the tax-paid infrastructure of that country which has made it possible to become filthy rich. People seem to be under the incredible belief that privately accrued capital has no connection with government spending.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Those illegal immigrants work for dimes and nickels.

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Sorry, I should have put that there to clarify my point, but yes, I meant to say illegal. It is just that I sort of got tired putting "illegal" in all those instances, instead letting the reader assume that.

Heh, I just noticed you are from Texas. Hehe, that explains everything perfectly about your behaviour.

Funny coincidence. I'm from Texas, been living in Oregon for a couple years.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Actually, I'm from Oregon. Been living in Texas for about a month.

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As he was hardly paying any taxes at all, I doubt we'll miss him. 10 million a year? Pocket money.

And the jobs he created stays in this country anyway, so....

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To your first point, its 30 % percent of his income. and from what you labeled it appears to be one part of his income. He probably ends up paying much more.

Secondly, that is a horrible attitude towards people who create jobs and frankly it annoys me alittle too much to respond to.

My family is almost in the top 5% of American wealth. sound wealthy? We make under 200,000 a year with two people working. I know that i sure don't feel rich. And this is before Obama taxes my family dead because he has delusions about being robin hood. i just happen to be the "evil" rich.

The top 5% of Americans pay 50% of Americas taxes. The bottom twenty percent pay none but use 83% of our public spending.



As to immigration i think you are all stupid Europeans :clown:. I am WHITE (mostly, there is a little asian) and i have multiple uncles born and raised in Mexico (pointing out being white so people know that the rest of my family wasn't born in Mexico, which would make my point moot would it not. I think that illegal immigration should be stopped because it is illegal. If you think there are no Mexicans in America go to California or Texas.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Define fair. The trouble with that is why I'd prefer a flat percentage tax or one as close to flat as possible.

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So then, you agree with me that this guy should be paying a lot more in taxes, right?

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

To your first point, its 30 % percent of his income. and from what you labeled it appears to be one part of his income. He probably ends up paying much more.

Secondly, that is a horrible attitude towards people who create jobs and frankly it annoys me alittle too much to respond to.

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Uhm, no, it's not 30% of his income. It's a few percent of his income. That's my entire point, ya know... And those 10 million are what he pays in taxes, period. There is no hidden tax stuff he pays.

Define fair. The trouble with that is why I'd prefer a flat percentage tax or one as close to flat as possible.

Fair at the very least being paying the same as everyone else, the rich with thier bright accountants seem to get away with very little taxes...

Though I would also say it would be fair to charge them extra as the infrastrctucture and labour that 'this' country provides has helped him make his awesome wealth... so it won't hurt him too much to spare a little to put back into the country...

Or actually it appears it would... my heart breaks for the guy....

Just read the newspaper, and I've got a delightful update!

The group famous for tax evasion, whining and questionable financial acrobatics in this country, are the shipping tycoons. Now one of them, Kristian Siem, the 16th wealthiest Norwegian(fortune: 6,5 billion), has decided to move all of his operations from Switzerland, among other countries, back to Norway. The reason? The tax and financial policies of the current socialist government!

HAH!

He moved out during the years of the conservative government, now that we've got a socialist government, he decides to move back. Take that!

Again, I say good riddance to Stein Erik Hagen. He moves his pitiful taxes out of the country while leaving all the jobs, and in return, the shipping tycoons moves all their jobs back to Norway.

Switzerland would not have many jobs in shipping...

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Just read the newspaper, and I've got a delightful update!

The group famous for tax evasion, whining and questionable financial acrobatics in this country, are the shipping tycoons. Now one of them, Kristian Siem, the 16th wealthiest Norwegian(fortune: 6,5 billion), has decided to move all of his operations from Switzerland, among other countries, back to Norway. The reason? The tax and financial policies of the current socialist government!

HAH!

He moved out during the years of the conservative government, now that we've got a socialist government, he decides to move back. Take that!

Again, I say good riddance to Stein Erik Hagen. He moves his pitiful taxes out of the country while leaving all the jobs, and in return, the shipping tycoons moves all their jobs back to Norway.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Switzerland would not have many jobs in shipping...

~:smoking:

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:laugh4:

Brilliant!