The sack of Carthage! (didn't quite go to plan!)

Hi All!,
Really enjoying EB. Some questions about attacking Carthage.

I have a mixed bag of 800 troops including 2x Phalangiti, all troops ranging from green to vets. General only one command star.

The Carthaginian are led by a super general beginning with X (don't remember his name). They have around 300 troops, ALL elite including one unit of Phalangiti.

I won the battle and captured Carthage but they killed nearly 600 of my troops to the 300 of theirs I killed. Toward the end I was throwing in archers to fight hand to hand just to try and break them.

The elite Phalangiti unit was VERY VERY hard to kill...pinned him to the front and sides and charged the rear with cavalry many times.

They were carving my units apart despite being surrounded. Is this type of meat grinder just how difficult battles can be when fighting elite troops led by legendary generals?

Also my own Phalangiti seemed terribly ineffective, they were wiped out without actually inflicting many kills...am I using them wrong?

You're playing on Hard, aren't you?

Let me guess, you were fighting Xantippos? He has spartan hoplite bodyguards. He can be really tough.
Also, let me guess, you are playing on hard battle difficulty?
Finally, was the Carthaginian elite phalanx was on the town square? In that case, they are nearly impossible to kill. If you have weak, low level phalangitai, they will get chewed apart by elites. Especially if you are playing on hard. You are probably not doing anything wrong.

Correct on all counts. The Phalangiti on the square were REALLY hard to kill and carved my troops up like cheese!

Xantippos bodyguard unit were surrounded by 2 units of Hastati and 1 Principes with cavalry charging in , took maybe 10 to 15 minutes to kill and they managed to route some Hastati.

Thanks for the pointers, I was sweating toward the end!

Yes playing on hard battles.

Hard or Very Hard battle difficulty gives the AI a boost in morale and defense, if not more. If the enemy phalanxes were fighting in the town square, they would never break. A general with many command stars will give increase his soldier's fighting abilities (morale + 1 point attack/defense per star, if I recall correctly).

Plus, as I recall the EB team only balanced the game to be played on Medium battle difficulty, meaning all the AI bonuses on Hard and Very Hard makes the game go a little strange.

As a hint on how to beat elite African phalanxes is to pin them with one unit from the front while smashing them with multiple pila volleys from the rear.
Also, don't play on hard difficulty in future campaigns if you want battles of not insane difficulty.

How come Xantippos gets Spartan bodyguards?

The key to winning siege battles like this one is

a) bring enough missiles, preferably javelins (since arrows are only moderately effective vs. armoured troops) and

b) patience.

Try to surround the whole town square with missile or precursor units with fire at will turned off (so as not to provoke the enemy to charge from the town square). If you've completed the maneuvre, you just need to micro manage the missiles to ensure they always hit the enemy in the back.
The top priorty missile target should be Phalangites. Spartan BGs can be cut down with AP melee weapons, if need be. Seeing as native Roman untis rarely have AP melee weapons (and you need those pila to impale the Elite Pikemen), try to hire Numidian archers, Germanic clubmen, Illyrian Levies or some Iberian troops to attack the Spartans (or Sacred Band, should they be present) from behind (while pinning them with spearmen or Roman infantry). Alternatively you can just use the expensive but awesome Extraordinarii.

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How come Xantippos gets Spartan bodyguards?

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He's a scripted Spartan who helps the Carthaginians against Rome.

Xantippos was a Spartan mercenary hired by Carthage to defend Africa against Rome towards the end of the first Punic War. He would not have used Carthaginian troops as his elite bodyguard but instead his Greek companions who would have been, Spartans.

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Originally Posted by Scud

Plus, as I recall the EB team only balanced the game to be played on Medium battle difficulty, meaning all the AI bonuses on Hard and Very Hard makes the game go a little strange.

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In my experience (a VH/VH victory by 130 BC) it just makes it hard, as the name suggests.

Does anyone know the bonuses the AI gets on Hard and Very hard battle difficulty?

think it goes +4 then +7 to attack and defense , or that could be morale ... info is posted on the forum somewhere

Sounds exactly just like my sack of Carthage but mine went as planned...until the next turn that is :p I was so desperate, it's the first time I destroyed "wonder" complexes including the legendary port. I regret it now cus Carthage is officially provincia Romana.

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If the enemy phalanxes were fighting in the town square, they would never break.

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I'm a bit of RTW noob, so I don't know much of new features and mechanics that are different from MTW and Shogun. Is that because the fact they're unable to rout or it's because they get bonus fighting there? I'm thinking the former but I thought I should ask.

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Originally Posted by Weebeast

I'm a bit of RTW noob, so I don't know much of new features and mechanics that are different from MTW and Shogun. Is that because the fact they're unable to rout or it's because they get bonus fighting there? I'm thinking the former but I thought I should ask.

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The former.

Gah I've been sending my experienced troops to death all these turns.:smash: Thanks.:2thumbsup:

Thanks for the info. Good stuff.

Speaking of generals...how does one build up/go about getting a decent general. Most of my FMs have no command stars. Even my faction leader only has 1 star.

Try going for family members that are Sharp/Charismatic/Vigorous. If you are playing a civilized faction, I hear that keeping an FM in school for a few years will help him pick up useful traits and ancillaries. Have your general fight battles where the odds are in the enemy's favor.

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Originally Posted by Frontline1944

Try going for family members that are Sharp/Charismatic/Vigorous. If you are playing a civilized faction, I hear that keeping an FM in school for a few years will help him pick up useful traits and ancillaries. Have your general fight battles where the odds are in the enemy's favor.

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Ah...Sharp/Charismatic/Vigorous, some daughter has just married a 25 year old one of those.

I shall send him to Rome for a few years. Simply being in the city where the schools are is enough right?

I'll give him a legion following that and have him campaign to the north...

Does fighting battles where the odds are in the enemies favour really work? I always try to engagements with bad odds but if it really boosts the command points then i'll do it!

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Originally Posted by kneecaps

Speaking of generals...how does one build up/go about getting a decent general. Most of my FMs have no command stars. Even my faction leader only has 1 star.

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I find it difficult to get decent commanders with the Romani because of their FM bodyguard. If you play Pahlava, Swêboz, or KH, you can leave your general in melee for a while, getting him nice morale relevant traits and ancillaries. If you leave a Roman FM in melee, he dies. OTOH Roman generals are good for mopping up fleeing enemies, which will at least get them a lot of kills, too.

I'm not sure what exact traits Xanthippos gets, but you may want to check before you decide to attack or even fight him. From my experience, killing units that are commanded by commanders with sufficient command stars (and potentially morale giving bonusses) is really hard. Therefore, you really need to make sure to separate this general from his army, and try to kill them when the odds are truly in your favor. In your case: breaking up the siege and allowing him to wander around (hopefully leaving his elite army) might have solved the problem. You might have been able to fight him with better odds that way.

It's a dishonorable exploitative strategy I've used against the Aedui many, many times... but it works.


About Hard difficulty: this shouldn't be a real problem, since you were playing as Rome and should thus be capable to field significant armies. Rather than playing on an easier difficulty level, I would suggest you just pay a little bit more attention to generals and their skills. Should you still be defeated when outnumbering a great enemy general... that's the way it might go. :yes:

About your inferior unit selection: You may want to have some pedites extraordinarii, or at least triarii in your next armies. At least they can hold the line. When fighting on H or VH battle difficulty, you should always make sure not to use too many inferior units (like camillian hastati vs carthagian line infantry). Their morale might drop too fast due to the casualties they tend to take.

I won the battle, but my losses were heavier than expected. I'm thinking 800 strong Roman army with auxillaries...should be able to cut down 300 Carthaginians..but no. They had almost a 2:1 kill ration on me.

I've considered using large amounts of Triarii and such, but I try and field my armies with historical (generally) composition. I used a mixed bag of mercenaries to make up the auxillaries.

So I'm talking, big on Hastati some Principes and generally just the one (maybe two) units of Triarii which I hold in reserve before comitting them at the 'decisive' point.

This is to much fun!

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Originally Posted by kneecaps

Thanks for the info. Good stuff.

Speaking of generals...how does one build up/go about getting a decent general. Most of my FMs have no command stars. Even my faction leader only has 1 star.

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There is at least two extensive threads on training FM as generals and governors. My advice would to use the Forum Search ability here and you can get much useful info on the matter.