Dishonoring treaties issue in 1.4, and 1.3 mods interfering with patch

Well, I started with a new campaign in 1.4. So far so good, but when I declared war against Venice, immediately I get a "-50 dishonoring treaties" penalty with virtually everyone. I did have a trade agreement with Venice, and with the Italian States (who declared war against me because they were allied with Venice). I tried different variations (like cancelling my trade agreement before).

I thought maybe it was because they had given me unlimited military access. So I got military access to another nation, then declared war. No penalty. Like Venice, this nation (Hanover) was very friendly, so it's not a "declare war on a friend" penalty.

Maybe it's because I was trading with them? So I break off trade prior to going to war. Same -50 penalty. Next, I reload, and try declaring war on Saxony (since I have a trade agreement). No penalty. It's not a "declared war on similar religion" penalty, since Saxony is the same religion as Venice any myself.

Best I can tell, it's a "Declared war on Venice" -50 penalty. IMO, anytime a game slaps you with a penalty worse than being a different religion + different government type, it should warn you first, and ask you if you should proceed. Basic Game Design 101, IMO.

Maybe Venice is a protectorate, but due to a bug, you don't get that info on the diplomacy screen?

Declaring war upon the Italian States (to get Venice to declare war on you) also yields the -50 penalty. Puzzling.

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Ok, I think I know what *might* be causing this. I had a mod "ProperEmpireTerraIncognitaAI" pack file in the Empire data directories. This mod was an attempt pre-1.4 to mitigate the diplomacy problems, although it was only partially successful.

I thought I wasn't using it (because I had it disabled in the ModManager launcher), but maybe it was still being loaded somehow. I nuked all copies of the pack file, launched the game, started a fresh Austrian campaign, and immediately declared war on Venice. No -50 penalty. The only difference I can think of is that they weren't allied with the Italian States yet. So either that was the difference, or the mod was interfering with the new diplo code. Will do more research later when I have more time.

Bottom line: If stuff is still wonky, *remove* all mod .pack files from your system. Better yet, reinstall ETW after ensuring that the installation directory (in steam) is empty (after removing it with Steam). Many of the mods affect diplomacy, thus might be overriding changes that CA did to fix the diplomacy system.


If anyone from CA is reading this, may I suggest a mod-file versioning system? Essentially, something that makes mods only work for a specific version, so that when you fix something, it isn't unintentionally undone by old mods? Just a suggestion :)

Yes, mod files seem to mess things up. I read somewhere that someone was still seeing yellow uniforms for Spain. It appeared, an old mod file in his ETW directory was not allowing the new (white) uniforms to be shown.

Ok, I've ruled out the mod as the cause. I reinstalled the game, after deleting local content in Steam and renaming both the steam directory for ETW and the directory in the users directory (so that anything in either should now not be visible to ETW unless it does a full hard drive search). I started up an Austrian campaign, and again played the first few turns, same plan as before. Again I get nailed by the -50 dishonoring treaty thing after DoWing Venice.

Repro steps: Start Austrian campaign in normal difficulty level. Get trade agreements with all land-based trade partners you can, and trade with England. Poland should counter-offer you for a military alliance. Move the army near Vienna to vienna, and build 6 line infantry over the next two turns. Then move the entire Vienna army towards Vienna and attack. As a result of the Vienna DoW, the Italian states will declare war on you. You might have to click turn or fight a battle for the diplomacy screen to get updated (an unfixed bug), but rest assured, most of the major nations will have a -50 hit.

It seems that ETW still has some bugs in the diplomacy system (or at least needs to tell us *why* these massive penalties get slapped on you).

It seems that unless you declare war on Venice at turn 1, you might as well not bother. It just isn't worth the diplomacy hit, especially since you can no longer get a +100 bonus for a state gift (which was useful in 1.3 to counter some of the mysterious massive diplo hits you would get then too).

Anyone else got a big "dishonoring treaty" on their diplomacy screen? Or am I the only unlucky one?

Got nailed with this again. Fortunately, I had a save from before I went to war. I'm playing as the french, and needed only the Cherokee territories to get Louisiana. So I declared war on them, and a turn or two later, checking diplomacy, I see "-49 dishonoring treaties". Checking the save after I declared war, and it was '50, while the save before war didn't have it. What is the common element between this and the aborted Austrian campaign? The target of the declaration of war has given me (prior to the game starting) unlimited military access.

So, if you want to avoid the -50 diplo hit, do *NOT* declare war on any minor nations that have given you unlimited military access. That means, as the french, you cannot complete the mission requirements to take Louisiana. The benefits of Louisiana simply aren't worth it to have your diplo take that kind of hit. At least I now know what the condition of that severe penalty is. Not sure the logic (or if it's intentional vs simply a bug), but at least now I can avoid it. I also don't know if you get the penalty if that nation declares war on you.

When I have time, I'll see if I can track down where in the data files this penalty is specified. If I can find it, I can reduce it. I'm not that opposed to getting a diplo hit for declaring war against someone who has given you unlimited military access, just not that severe (and *please* warn us if that's going to happen *before* you cross the point of no return!).

On a positive note, diplomacy in general is much, much better in 1.4. I was at war with England, and *actually* managed to sue for peace (cost me 10k + a territory, but it worked). This was at -240 diplo relations! They even seem to be honoring it and not re-DoWing me (maybe it's because they're still fighting all my allies). I even got a trade agreement next turn, in exchange for about 9k + swapping ring bayonets for a naval tech of similar level. Much better than 1.3! Austria did DoW me for no obvious reason, but a save-restore + a spy mission (to adjust the random number generator seed) fixed that, and they've left me alone. Apparently there's still a very small % chance of a DoW from someone who doesn't like you. The save/restore trick solves that nicely, and seems to stick.

don't know what I did late in my prussian campaign but I got -100 dishonoring treaties with all my allies, so they all are either indifferent or don't like me a whole lot or hate my guts, but they don't seem to declare war on me so thats something.

on the state gifts, i really wish they would EXPLAIN what they wanted each gift to do or not, because now its really confusing, it looks like 2500 gives +10 relations the next turn 5000 gives +20 and 10000 gives +30, these numbers are a little pathetic to me especially when THEY DO NOT STACK. they don't stack together and it doesn't stack by sending it many times, I agree that stacking the values could lead to abuse of it, but only if your a finance wiz, or in the late game where you'd have to be winning majorly to afford that much money a turn, or cheatin, I thought +100 for 2500 was a little too much,

But +30 for 10000? is just stupid! +100 for 10000 would be nice, or even +75, but 30 is rediculous and now makes what was a valuable diplomatic aid, pointless.

when I play as Austria, Venice is a protectorate of Bavaria.... also entangling alliances frequently force you into choosing sides, thus breaking an alliance anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tsar of Floyd

when I play as Austria, Venice is a protectorate of Bavaria.... also entangling alliances frequently force you into choosing sides, thus breaking an alliance anyway.

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Those things are not fixed. They seem to be random. In my game they were allied with the Italians and no one else.

In my game Bavaria is a protectorate of Württemberg along with two or three other nations, to include Prussia.

This is a complaint I have about 1.4. The protectorate system didn't need changing. Now you can not get a protectorate, so far as my experience goes.

The Netherlands is a protectorate of Hanover! This is silly! The strength and prestige of the Protector should be a factor. When those factors are too low these nations should break with the protector and find someone better to provide their security.


by the way Tsar of Floyd, Welcome aboard!