German elections return a centre-right government

It looks as if the SPD has suffered a substantial rebuff at the polls and Chancellor Merkel has been re-elected - this time with the option to form a coalition of the centre-right, rather than relying on the Social Democrats.

It's clear that Mrs Merkel is widely trusted by the electorate and now they have given her the chance to drive through her original plans.

German voters gave conservative chancellor Angela Merkel a second term today and allowed her to dump her centre-left coalition partners in favour of the pro-business Free Democrats (FDP), projections showed.

Her challenger in the vote, Social Democrat (SPD) Frank-Walter Steinmeier, appeared on television shortly after the first projections came out and conceded that his party had suffered a "bitter defeat".

What will this mean for Germany and the rest of Europe?

I really hope the CDU will finally ban video games, install cameras on all public places and some of those other nice policies their members seem to bring up again and again.

In other words, my hopes are actually on a strong FDP now, not sure their policies are all good and for the better, but we'll see about that.

Europe's Center-Left Parties Stuck in a Dead End
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...650812,00.html

I think the Liberal Democrats should get into power, it is worth it just for the total shock of it all. Maybe the opposition could be UKIP.

Having labour and tories in 3rd and 4th would be an amusing sight.

Just how "Christian" is CDU? Any Germans here that can answer that? I have read considerable amounts of news on them, mainly from the Economist but I fail to see how a Western European, rather secular nation can have a party named "CDU". To what extent does their purported religiosity influence their actions?

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Just how "Christian" is CDU? Any Germans here that can answer that? I have read considerable amounts of news on them, mainly from the Economist but I fail to see how a Western European, rather secular nation can have a party named "CDU". To what extent does their purported religiosity influence their actions?

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Nothing special, or biggest/second biggest (currently tied with mr Wilders) is called the Christian democratic -don't know how to translate last word-.

i like the sound of the FDP, germany may be going somewhere useful now.

free-market
non-corporatist
pro-afghanistan
pro-nuclear

the only fly in the ointment is that that are pro EU-federalist, but then who isn't these days in euro politics.

i think the result is great, shame portugal didn't crown the moment by booting the socialists.

Well, at least they didn't elect another Hitler....

Always nice when the Germans don't do that.

i'm not sure if i can take that comment at face value HT, are you sure you aren't throwing out a sardonic riposte or some such witty repartee?

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Just how "Christian" is CDU? Any Germans here that can answer that? I have read considerable amounts of news on them, mainly from the Economist but I fail to see how a Western European, rather secular nation can have a party named "CDU". To what extent does their purported religiosity influence their actions?

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As Fragony pointed out, the christianity is mostly in their name and some general values. For some reason it still seems to attract some christian voters though.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

i like the sound of the FDP, germany may be going somewhere useful now.

free-market
non-corporatist
pro-afghanistan
pro-nuclear

the only fly in the ointment is that that are pro EU-federalist, but then who isn't these days in euro politics.

i think the result is great, shame portugal didn't crown the moment by booting the socialists.

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I like some of that as well, but I want to know what will happen to people who have to work for 3EUR an hour...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Well, at least they didn't elect another Hitler....

Always nice when the Germans don't do that.

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:laugh4:
I didn't vote by the way so I can't be blamed for nothing.
I really wanted to but am visiting my parents and cannot vote here, didn't have time to go for a postal vote due to having exams...must be a conspiracy to exclude me. :inquisitive:

Someone's already mentioned Hitler, so I might as well post these:

https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1254133734
https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1254133784

I guess making empty promises that appeal to pretty much everyone is not just a sympton of our time :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Just how "Christian" is CDU? Any Germans here that can answer that? I have read considerable amounts of news on them, mainly from the Economist but I fail to see how a Western European, rather secular nation can have a party named "CDU". To what extent does their purported religiosity influence their actions?

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I'm pretty sure that most European countries have at least one christian democratic party, and that the UK is an exception.

Ours doesn't explicitly refer to the bible anymore when they want to get something done because that would alienate many centrist voters, but I suspect that a substantial part of them is just hiding their true colors.

This guy sums up my position very well, but be aware it's a bit more than a year old and in german.
He mentions how 70% said in a poll that they like Merkel and in the same poll 70% said they're not satisfied with the government. I was reminded of that when I saw an ad on a paper earlier that said "If you want Merkel, you have to vote CDU." which leads me to conclude a lot of people really have no idea who or what they're voting for. :dizzy2:

interesting round-up of headline responses to the Merkel victory from around europe:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...651726,00.html


one that interested me was La Liberation:

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France's Libération saw some contradiction in the fact that a pro-business party will now become the junior partner in Germany's ruling coalition. "The crisis shows the failure of a certain liberalism but, in Germany, the liberals have won," the paper wrote. It added that Germany's -- like France's -- left needed to get its act together: "To stop liberalism from spreading in Germany and elsewhere, there needs to be a strong and united left that can beat the right and tailor its policies to win votes in the center. The SPD has not understood the need to adapt. ... For the left in France and Germany, the Rhine is no longer a border."

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how does the French left define "liberalism" such that it is seen as an alien orthodoxy?

I like Merkel. Boring politicians are the best politicians. I must echo the sentiment that I like Merkel, but not the CDU/CSU.

Happy to see the FPD go in. I somewhat equally dislike Christian democrats and social democrats.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Nothing special, or biggest/second biggest (currently tied with mr Wilders) is called the Christian democratic -don't know how to translate last word-.

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I think Dutch 'appèl' translates into English - rather surprisingly - as 'appeal'. :balloon2:

(French: appeler)

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

one that interested me was La Liberation:

how does the French left define "liberalism" such that it is seen as an alien orthodoxy?

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Liberalism in french means right wing free market fundamentalism.

Libération (left leaning) describes a feeling of frustration among the (French?) left. On the one hand, 'liberalism' has driven the Western economies into the biggest depression sinds the 1930's. Leftist parties have warned against this for two decades.
On the other hand, the very parties responsible for this debacle are winning elections.

I must say that I've made a sharp left-turn this past year. I still think of myself as centre-right, but perhaps this no longer applies. I can not ignore the insanity I see around me. For years, neo-liberalism has demanded that there be no regulation and no tax for haute finance. Then the card house collapses. And suddenly there should be taxes to help them out that my grandchildren will still be paying.


The folly of the Euro right has been the embracing of anglo ultraliberalism. The protection of corporations over people. This has undermined, amongst many other things, several of Europe's most cherised qualities:
- Meritocracy. Everywhere in Europe, social mobility is dropping to the level of the anglo world. Whereas in the UK and US your (grand)parents decide your succes, in Europe, hard work and talent is decisive.
- The quality of public services. Healthcare, education etc.
- A certain gentleness, social cohesion, civilization. The social gentleness of Europe has been swapped for the law of the jungle, for greed, envy, 'me me me and the finger to everybody else'.

The folly of the Euro left has been unbridled mass immigration. This has undermined social solidarity, and has destroyed socialism in Europe forever.

cheers Louis. :)

n.b. there is a difference between free market economics and corpratism.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

- Meritocracy. Everywhere in Europe, social mobility is dropping to the level of the anglo world. Whereas in the UK and US your (grand)parents decide your succes, in Europe, hard work and talent is decisive.

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Well this is just outright untrue. In the States merit rules the roost.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Well this is just outright untrue. In the States merit rules the roost.

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It doesn't though. If you are born middle class, you generally stay middle class, if you are born working, you generally stay working class, if you are born upper class, you generally stay upper class, if you are born unworking class, you generally stay unworking class.

There is basically almost no social movability.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Well this is just outright untrue. In the States merit rules the roost.

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Might be true, but apparently to a lesser extand than in some part of Europe. By northern Europe, they mean Germany, Netherland and the Scandinavian Countries.

Another OECD survey (can't find it atm) concluded that UK has a low social mobility, a bit better than Portugal or Italy, but similar to France's or Belgium's. It seems reality is quite far from the 'free-market creates more social mobility' mantra.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

n.b. there is a difference between free market economics and corpratism.

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This is about as valuable as saying that communism is different from stalinism/maoism. Might be true in theory, but in practice, it's not, at least AFAIK.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

It doesn't though. If you are born middle class, you generally stay middle class, if you are born working, you generally stay working class, if you are born upper class, you generally stay upper class, if you are born unworking class, you generally stay unworking class.

There is basically almost no social movability.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Oh man, thanks for the joke. The backroom can be depressing at times without such witty jesters as yourself.

CR

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Just how "Christian" is CDU? Any Germans here that can answer that? I have read considerable amounts of news on them, mainly from the Economist but I fail to see how a Western European, rather secular nation can have a party named "CDU". To what extent does their purported religiosity influence their actions?

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CDU, not really. CSU, more so.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Another OECD survey (can't find it atm) concluded that UK has a low social mobility, a bit better than Portugal or Italy, but similar to France's or Belgium's. It seems reality is quite far from the 'free-market creates more social mobility' mantra.

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I would argue that the free market does, but corporatism doesn't necessarily do so.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Oh man, thanks for the joke. The backroom can be depressing at times without such witty jesters as yourself.

CR

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How 'bout posting some stats that show the US have a higher social mobility than europe? That will actually be a contribution, instead of just trying to ruin the discussion....

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Originally Posted by Beskar

It doesn't though. If you are born middle class, you generally stay middle class, if you are born working, you generally stay working class, if you are born upper class, you generally stay upper class, if you are born unworking class, you generally stay unworking class.

There is basically almost no social movability.

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That's true across the globe and it tells nothing about one's mobility within his social class.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

I'm pretty sure that most European countries have at least one christian democratic party, and that the UK is an exception..

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Of course, I know that. But it seems that among the major nations, Germany is the only one with a self-described as "Christian" party. Of course, all nations likewise have some variant of the Nazi and the communist party, but you do not see those anywhere close to power. Usually.


Anyway, guys, check out another political oddity:

NATIONAL BOLSHEVISM - I kid you not:


It actually, quite easily, makes sense, but they manner in which those nutjobs present it is simply farcical :laugh4:.

In any case, Louis, this proves Russian superiorly over your measly Frogs. (please do not ask me how much vodka it took for us to come up with this pile of manure)

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Anyway, guys, check out another political oddity:

NATIONAL BOLSHEVISM - I kid you not:

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You see that as crazy. I see it as a way to get rid of the NPD and Die Linke in one fell stroke.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

You see that as crazy. I see it as a way to get rid of the NPD and Die Linke in one fell stroke.

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Hmmm, you certainly have a point, but would you truly like to have the two most radical parties of the Bundestag unite?

And who said I view them as crazy? I am voting for them as soon as I turn 18! Who would not want the greatness of Hitler Germany and Stalin Russia unite??

Well, on a more serious note, if they were to go free-market, I would be enticed by the nationalism. Too bad their agenda is nothing but the raving of intoxicated young males... I wish Russia could have an Empire, but can we? Can anyone? I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Hmmm, you certainly have a point, but would you truly like to have the two most radical parties of the Bundestag unite?

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The NPD isn't in the Bundestag, so hopefully their vote shares would then converge and they would rapidly lose influence.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

The NPD isn't in the Bundestag, so hopefully their vote shares would then converge and they would rapidly lose influence.

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Gah, sorry, I mixed up NDP with The Left. I believe they do have a seat, do they not?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

How 'bout posting some stats that show the US have a higher social mobility than europe? That will actually be a contribution, instead of just trying to ruin the discussion....

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I didn't say the US had higher social mobility, I said Beskar's claim ("There is basically almost no social movability") was laughable. We do manage to avoid an 'unworking class' though, perhaps by not giving away welfare to life to anyone without a job.

And I could have listed many personal examples that proved that, but I didn't want to make such an effort to refute a claim that he clearly hasn't researched or thought about, but just repeated after reading it in Socialist Fancy or whatever.

CR
(Note, the above post contains hyperbole and generalizations. Take literally at your own risk)

How is it laughable?