Russian lies about Poland

I think it can be interesting example of falsification of history.

Let's start from Katyń (do not mix with Khatyń).
Russians tell something like "ok we did it, but you did same earlier. you killed 20.000 our prisoners of war during polish-soviet war 1920". This is really good falsification because:
1. ok 20.000 their prisoners died, but they weren't killed. There were some pandemias after world war I and russian soldiers suffered most of them (same like rest of people around).
2. comparison to died soviet prisoners is joke when compared with ... number of polish murdered pow's.
Officialy into camps died about 3.000 + 5.000 at Syberia but .... Russian took much less prisoners of war. They were murdering (generally with sabres and after tortures) most of soldiers taken. There were massive executions of prisoners into every place when some of Poles surrendered.

Nowadays they seems to forget about their crimes and try to cpmpare their anti-human regime to Poland.

Have you got any quotes or sources to back up your claim?

You know what... I'm gonna give Krook 24 hours to provide some sources for this thread. Then it might have a chance of looking as something proper, instead of yet another pointless rant.

Not that I will actually stick around and post in an exercise of futility, but the Poles had a jolly good time slaughtering Russian POW during the Polish-Soviet War. Even more so with the civilians, who were bathed in blood, burned in their villages. The Poles did it; the Soviets did it; the Ukrainians did it. War is hell, especially when it is in the East, where there is little in the way of rules of "honourable" conduct.

Now, it is quite, or more likely, very possible that the Soviets massacred more Poles on the eve of Second World War then the Poles ever succeeding in doing, but I would like to see you insist that the Poles did not initially butcher more of Soviets then you in the 1919-1921 War. Tit for tat :shrug:.

And yes, I know who you are KrooK, and I am a Russian, and I do realise this is not perhaps the wisest thing I ever did, but what the heel, why not? I can step down any-time I wish...

What's a Poland?

Who cares?

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Not that I will actually stick around and post in an exercise of futility, but the Poles had a jolly good time slaughtering Russian POW during the Polish-Soviet War. Even more so with the civilians, who were bathed in blood, burned in their villages. The Poles did it; the Soviets did it; the Ukrainians did it. War is hell, especially when it is in the East, where there is little in the way of rules of "honourable" conduct.

Now, it is quite, or more likely, very possible that the Soviets massacred more Poles on the eve of Second World War then the Poles ever succeeding in doing, but I would like to see you insist that the Poles did not initially butcher more of Soviets then you in the 1919-1921 War. Tit for tat :shrug:.

And yes, I know who you are KrooK, and I am a Russian, and I do realise this is not perhaps the wisest thing I ever did, but what the heel, why not? I can step down any-time I wish...

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I think this is an excellent summary of the subject. :thumbsup:

Poland, rather, the more nationalistically inclinent segment of it, wishes to see Poland as the major victim of the 20th century. There is no room left for any criticism of Poland itself.
Reality is that the line between victim and perpetrator was blurred, shifting and depending a good deal on who was on top at any one point, in Europe's cursed first half of the century.


/The ultra-nationalist Polish govenment was defeated in the elections two years ago. Poland has matured, the bizarre wave of ultra-nationalism of a few years ago has already receded in Poland at large. It festers on only as a minority movement.

While it is certainly true that the Poles committed crimes as well, I am inclined to agree with Krook that the Soviets were extremely cruel in Poland.

Didn't Russia apologized for Katyn recently? Poland and Russia are also supposed to form a joint commission to perform a new research or something like that...

On the whole, I'd say nationalism, especially extreme nationalism is on the decline in eastern Europe.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

On the whole, I'd say nationalism, especially extreme nationalism is on the decline in eastern Europe.

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I may be simplifying things but I think consumerism and contact with the western world/democracy have a tendency to erode other seemingly rigid structures like nationalism, despotism etc. in many countries, which is probably why our friend Kim Jung Il tries to keep all of it out of his personal sandbox country.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I may be simplifying things but I think consumerism and contact with the western world/democracy have a tendency to erode other seemingly rigid structures like nationalism, despotism etc. in many countries, which is probably why our friend Kim Jung Il tries to keep all of it out of his personal sandbox country.

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Though he himself of course enjoys the benefits of consumerism:book:

Proofs?
- 7.06.1920 Russians capture Zytomierz = all prisoners of war murdered.
- after capturing village Berdyczów Russians burned alive field hospital with personel and 600 wounded
I strongly advise book called "Niemen 1920"

Paulus - russian prisoners were not murdered (with exeption for Kuban Cossacks after their war crimes became discovered - but they were first to ran so none of them were catched). They died from pandemia despite normal health care. This has been announced by polish - russian historical commusion.
Of course nowadays same people who said if changed her mind (or better - were ordered to change by Kremal order).
On the other hand most of polish prisoners became murdered as soon as they surrendered. Others were not feed - thousands died from starvation. It was official politics of Soviets.

And here I want you remember - POLISH FORCES DURING WAR 1919-1920 DID NOT MURDERED CIVILIANS. Your theory about slaughtering villages should be put behind your dreams. In polish army this is being punished by field court. Soviet loved it. They organised public massacre into every bigger city their captured.

And yes - at the beginning of 90ties Russia officially announced that they are responsible for Katyń. But nowadays their historician are talking that it was good revenge for their poor prisoners or that ... Katyn has never happened. They simply can't accept that into 1939 Soviet Russia was exactly same country like IIIrd Reich. Difference was only that into IIIrd Reich enemy were Jews while into Soviet Russia enemy non communists. As a interesting anegdote I would like to mention some "documentary" movies from Russian TV with interesting theories like:
1. into 1939 Poland was ... "ally of Hitler" and together with him prepared to invasion on Russia
2. Poles into 1920 murdered 80.000 of russians prisoners of war into prison camps (I mentioned earlier that russian historicial officially announced that its not true) - nice especially that poles took 65.000 (cloning?)
3. and one more - into 1941 Poland .... attacked USSR with small support of IIIrd Reich (really)

And Pauls - as you know I'm Pole. And I will never accept lies from your government. No matter what is official policy of Kremal and now matter what thinks typical Russian - truth is always truth and finally will be known. You know it and maybe thats why Russians are so angry when someone mention Katyń.

At the end I would not be myself if I did not reply our dearest French friend. Louis - be pround of your Sarkozy (however I don't think you have reason) but get lost from our government. I told you many times that despite great historical knowledge about West you know nothing about East and you are looking for nazism in every political line that is not similar to French. I don't even think you know role of France into polish - russian war.

:poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: POLAND :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland:

Poles? You mean those poles the stripper girls dance with at the club?

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Originally Posted by KrooK

And here I want you remember - POLISH FORCES DURING WAR 1919-1920 DID NOT MURDERED CIVILIANS.

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They did, especially against Jews.

Everytime a village or a town was taken by polish forces, a pogrom happened. It was pretty much well known by then, as a few members of the parliament blamed the army for these pogroms.

Now, the soviets weren't really nice either, and I'm completely willing to admit that they did terrible things. But so did Poland.

And the way PoW died was quite similar on both sides: many died from malnutrition and diseases, some were shot on the spot. Neither state had the means, the will and the resources to take care of ten of thousands of PoWs, so they just parked them into WWI-camps and let them rot there (or used them as a workforce). Soviets did it. Polish did it. Been there done that.
This whole "we were bad, but they were slightly worse, so it's all their fault" argument is childish.

The only reason why Poland might have the moral high ground is because Polish newspapers and democrats actually criticized the way the war was handled. They criticized the way soviet PoWs were (mis)treated, they criticized the violence against civilians and jews. They criticized the occupation of western ukrainia.
Of course, nothing like that happened in USSR as it was by 1921 already a full working totalitarian dictatorship.

Now, I'm not sure you've noticed so far, but people here don't really give a damn about your topics and constant rants. We're perfectly willing to discuss Poland's history with normal people, but blind nationalists aren't really fun or interesting to talk to. If you were at least willing to admit that Poland has done some wrongs at some point, that would be somewhat of a relief for us.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Now, I'm not sure you've noticed so far, but people here don't really give a damn about your topics and constant rants. We're perfectly willing to discuss Poland's history with normal people, but blind nationalists aren't really fun or interesting to talk to. If you were at least willing to admit that Poland has done some wrongs at some point, that would be somewhat of a relief for us.

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QFT.

Actually, by brushing aside (or completely denying) that Poland has had it's low points in the last 100 years or so, is really doing a massive disservice to the people that worked so tirelessly to bring Poland into the modern, freethinking, democracy that it is today.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

And Pauls - as you know I'm Pole. And I will never accept lies from your government. No matter what is official policy of Kremal and now matter what thinks typical Russian - truth is always truth and finally will be known. You know it and maybe thats why Russians are so angry when someone mention Katyń.

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Have you considered that this belief and attitude is somewhat blinding you from seeing the truth in others arguements. Such an attitude tends to be poisonous for your own arguement. Plus what was the point of starting this thread, other than to have a rant or start an arguement?

Ne:2thumbsup:

In all fairness, Krook does have a very strong point about Russian atrocities committed in Poland, yet it is true he is ignoring that Poles committed any crimes (somewhat ironically).

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

In all fairness, Krook does have a very strong point about Russian atrocities committed in Poland, yet it is true he is ignoring that Poles committed any crimes (somewhat ironically).

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What point? I see no point here, only a "ZOMG, EVIL RUSSIANS ARE BAD, THEY KILLED INNOCENT POLES" rant.

He's not even trying to discuss the way both armies behaved. He's just saying that Russian historians are - once again - conspirating against Poland. No argument, no nothing. He's just not willing to discuss anything at all. He throws his made-up facts in our faces (as if we could do anything about it), and then gets mad when people disagree.

That's what Krook has been doing since the very first time he posted on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

What point? I see no point here, only a "ZOMG, EVIL RUSSIANS ARE BAD, THEY KILLED INNOCENT POLES" rant.

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Which is true, they did kill innocent Poles, and were considerably more brutal than vice-versa - though Krook should acknowledge that Poles killed civilians as well.

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He's just saying that Russian historians are - once again - conspirating against Poland.

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They aren't conspiring against Poland, so to speak, but I wouldn't disagree that there is some bias against Poland in Russia.

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That's what Krook has been doing since the very first time he posted on this forum.

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I'm German, and am therefore often the target of these rants. I am well aware.

I don't have any sources at hand, but I've read of the Katyn massacre as well. The Soviets executed thousands of educated Poles under the pretext that they had ties to the military - wich pretty much everyone had due to conscription. Gorbachov admitted the crime almost 60 years after the fact.

EDIT: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4102967.stm

to clarify, this is different from maltreating Prisoners of War. Most of the Katyn victims were rounded up after the Soviets started occupying Poland.

I let this thread live for a while hoping it would turn into something better than what I expected. But I don't see any good coming out of it.

If this is about some current day Russian bias or "lies" to change history then it really belongs in the Backroom. But as Krook did not manage to provide just one link to what on earth it was about, I'll save my fellow moderators in the Backroom from having to deal with this tirade.

*closed*