On the mounting of Descents, and their application.

Hi,


I want to know if anyone does this, and to inform those who don't

I am currently having an AS campaign*, where I have to currently deal with Carthage and Dacia, and am woefully outnumbered by both armies. up to that point, It was believed that mere conquest could deal with these factions, but as many know, that can be a pain in the rear (rebellions, administration, defense, etc). raids have been proposed, which are normally part of the VC of a faction: basically, take a town, hold it for a while, and pull back.

its these VC raids, plus my knowlege of the seven years war, that have inspired this new strategy: how to weaken the enemy, without having to hold their territories, particularly if they are more economically vibrant AI factions. I call them "descents", after operations of a similar sort made by the british in the seven years war.

it works something like this:

1) the target must (preferably) be a coastal town. you can penetrate inland if resistance is minimal, or the inland city is behind an already descended city.

2) assemble a small floatilla, and a moderately sized army (full size is if you want to attack multiple towns)

3) land right up to the town, and lay siege. assault as soon as possible, while at the same time drawing in as many enemy armies as possible.

4) somehow defeat the armies, and capture the town.

now here's where things get interesting:

5) do not worry about the defense, government, or even temporarily holding the city: simply enslave the city, and begin to wantonly tear down as many enemy infrastructures as possible: aim for sewege, barracks, and govt. make sure only building that can't be demolished are left, and do not bother repairing any damaged walls. then, in the same turn as the city was captured, leave it, and head right back home. the city will riot, killing more citizens and trashing any remaining buildings, and will eventually go back to carthage. (I got this from Wolfe's descents on the countryside surrounding Quebec after his failed assault on Beauport, and before his battle on the plains of Abraham)

6)rinse and repeat, dealing death and destruction to as many cities along/near the coast as possible.


now, what does this do to the AI faction? firstly, it severly depopulates the cities (Ippone, south of Carthage, now only has 400 people in my campaign; carthage, 1,000), undercutting recruitment. the loss of economic infrastructure wipes out all revenue for the cities (the two cities make -800 or less). then there are the heavy losses incurred on the armies in those cities, as well as the relief force(s); Ippone cost Carthage 40,000 soldiers, and 15,000 civilians, in two descents. and of course, having torn down the barracks, then cannot really retrain those elite units they depended on. I now have very few, if any, attacks on my frontier cities, and Rome is begining to swallow Carthaginian territory, first in Spain, then Mauritania.


now, why do I write this? well, I figured since it works with me, it can help many (hellenistic) players deal with the enemy AI, particularly from Carthage, Rome, and Dacia, and the ptolies, who keep many coastal towns, that are also out of the VC areas.

I also write this to describe the strategy, and to ask (as I mentioned at the begining): has anyone else tried this strategy? I want to know if this is also done by players.


*the computer is at a repair center as this is being written, so the campaign has been paused.

That's often the best way to handle the various 'annoying' factions (like the Romaioi) in early to mid campaign. Plunder and slaves are a rather lucrative source of income. I also suggest doing this in a systematical manner, rotating between various coasts. That way they can recover somewhat from their ordeal, for you to pillage again. It's kinda like farming. =]

I do this a lot with Hayasdan. Actually, it saved Armavir from downfall when I sent a small but capable army to completely lay waste to Karkathiokerta. I think it scared the Seleucid so much they immediately retreated.

I do it in all my campaigns, it helps keep factions under control very nicely, in my recent romani game I practically crippled Carthages ability to attack me in Italy by sacking their core cities and destroying all of their naval ports except Mastia (i wanted them to still be able to continue their war in iberia so as to keep the region divided and weak)

A slight snag that can happen sometimes is when the enemy refuses to take back the city by force, if this happens then it will eventually revolt to them which can sometimes result in nasty looking stacks of gold chevroned units spawning.

Also I'd recommend not destroying the Government buildings as the AI doesn't know how to build these properly so when a city revolts back to them they usually end up building Gov 4 (this happened in my romani game with Kart Hadast) causing problems with the rebuilding process.

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Originally Posted by bobbin

Also I'd recommend not destroying the Government buildings as the AI doesn't know how to build these properly so when a city revolts back to them they usually end up building Gov 4 (this happened in my romani game with Kart Hadast) causing problems with the rebuilding process.

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Yes, it is really important to leave the government buildings intact. The AI can only build lvl3-4 (and will usually end up with 4 since it is cheaper and faster to build), lvl1+2 are placed by the script upon conquest (not through rebellion or diplomacy).
So if you destroy the government and the MICs, the AI can't properly rebuild them. Some factions, like Rome for example, can thus end up unable to recruit anything in their starting territories.
The main reason the AI does not attack anymore is not the devastation caused by the raid, but the inability to recruit anything, except for some levies.
By destroying the government the AI might never again be able to recruit it's elite troops and will be crippled for the whole rest of the game...

I do it from time to time. I like to do it alot when I have many storng armies doing nothing.... sending them out to kill, burn, loot and **** can gain them some Experience they can use in tougher situations. My generals often have a reputation they need to upkeep - especially since there tribal leaders and warlords of nomadic warriors.:yes:

Yeah, I do it fairly regularly, and I believe that's what allowed the Carthies to defeat the Romans. I should probably attempt to do the same to them...

*Drools, thinking of the many slaves Karthadast would yield*

Yes, I will definitely do it to them too. :evilgrin:

AKA Viking raids. One of my favourite moves. I just recently razed Qart Hadast and Atiqa with the Casse, killing Xanthippos on the way. This gave me the opportunity to build two extensive trade port upgrades at once...

Yes I figured that tactics out myself. I fought three wars with the Sabeans, and in the first two I did exactly this. In the third war I was so fed up that I decided to conquer them.

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Also I'd recommend not destroying the Government buildings as the AI doesn't know how to build these properly so when a city revolts back to them they usually end up building Gov 4 (this happened in my romani game with Kart Hadast) causing problems with the rebuilding process.

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That's really strange. The script should automatically place the highest available government building. Now that I think of it, I guess that only goes when the settlement is conquered. Hm..

I always done this in midgame to give me long lasting fun.... (surely I can hold them, but leaving an AI faction with 1 vulnerable region and you are not big enough will leave me with buffer regions after... it was very suitable to me as Epeiros, to let the Romaioi keep their Mediolanium, Patavium, and Massalia, so the big Avernii empire can't hit me directly afterwards - I just too often to raid Massalia and then let the romaioi capture it back)

Yup, I have employed this strategy to great effect in my Getai campaign, first taking the middle third of the Italic Peninsula (and then giving the cities to my allies, the Epeirotes), and sweeping down into Sicily, and then abandoning the entire place.

On another expedition, I traveled across the Mediterranean (from Hellas to the Nile Delta) in order to raze a few Ptolemaioc Huge Cities. Boarded my fleet, and sent them west to devastate Kart-Hadast and a few other Carthaginian settlements.

At the moment, I am contemplating a third major raid, this time aimed at Salamis, Antiocheia, Sidon, and Damaskos. :evilgrin:

I did it in my Carthag campaign. When the Romans sent stack after stack against Messana (always 1 Stack besieging the city and 5-6 waiting behind, so if the first stack is not successful, they can jump in and continue the siege in the same turn), I raided all of Italy which drew them back to stone age ... finally still got to kill them.

I did those raids at the beginning of my EB career, years ago. I didn't like the endless AI stacks and the endless treasure. But I accepted that RTW AI is dumb, and the only way to have fun at playing, is for me to restrict me to a "AI-level" of playing, meaning no raids with ships and just occasionally invade islands. Furthermore I have in most of my games some houserules, they can restrict me to become a superpower to early and to loose the feeling in a game.

The human player is far more better, far more creative and capable of arraying longtime strategical goals, something that the RTW/BI/ALEX-AI will never be. I do understand the reasons to make those raids if a faction sends endless stacks to you and you have to fight a epic battle every round, but in my opinion and in my experience only the troops are changing from elites to levies, not the amount.

To be clear:
I do make punishment expansions into enemy territorities to enslave, burn and raze their cities, but not with ships as even with BI/ALEX the AI is not capable of doing these things.

XSamatan