Camillian units routing too easily?

Hi.

First of all I'm a phalanx man. Most of my experience (read:all my finished campaigns) so far has been with phalanx factions (Epeiros and Arche Seleukeia) except for a Charthage campaign that died off due to repeated CTDs.

Recently I've decided to give Carthage a second try. Currently I've killed off the Lusotann and have a half-stack mopping-up the rest of the rebels in Spain and 2 stacks in Italy fighting the romans. A full stack of elite troops in central Italy (elephants, sacred bands, lanceari, elite africans and what not) that
the AI stubbornly ignores despite me besieging Capua(keeps sending 2-3 units at once+the Capuan garrison that never makes it to the battlefield) and about 3/4 of a stack of mercenaries that's steamrolling southern Italy.

I recruited this last army because the Romans invaded Sicily just as I was raising an army to invade them

So I got together whatever troops I had available (couple of hoplites, lucanians and 2 FMs), augmented with some samnite mercenaries(4 milites, 2 hastati and 2 certan archers) and hoped they could delay the Romans the few turns it would take my army to reach Sicily from Kart-Hadast. However, so far I've managed to utterly destroy 3 fullstacks in a pretty weird way:

Everything below princeps (hastati, rorarii, accensi and other light infantry)simply routs after a few minutes of face-to-face melee with my battle line. and for the heavier troops (pedites extraordinarii, princeps and triarii) a charge in the back usually gets the same effect(note: all my cavalry consists of 2 FMs, that's about 70 sacred bands on huge).

I've never seen stuff routing so fast(even eastern levies vs TABs). Checked the camillian units' morale and it seems well in line with the other faction's infantry. My only logical explanation so far is that sword infantry (with which I have really limited experience) kills stuff way faster than spear infantry, and the rate of taking casualties causes them to rout(they usually rout around 110-120 ppl on huge).
Anyone has noticed anything similar?

Camillian Troops have a little less morale than Polybians.

Sword infantry does kill faster. Play as a Celtic faction to realize this.

YOur elephants are probably reducing thier morale or maybe the commanding general has some bad traits that are having a negative effect.

If you want to see how traits can affect a battle have a pop at one of the rebel central european super stacks that the script spawns, with the general still alive they will practically never rout but once he's dead they all go at once.

They make up for it with their dirt-cheapness.

I have had mixed experience with Camillans, though if you are using Hammer and Anvil those results are typical.

Well imo, Camillan Hastati aren't worth very much being light sword infantry though not particularly mobile or possessing great stamina. Principes are another story. Camillan Principes destroy just about any medium/light infantry they touch. In fact I think they are a little OP'd. Roarii are basically levy spearmen and perform admirably in this role. I also consider leves a very good skirmishing unit as they carry spears and as such can defeat cavalry. And of course Triarii are excellent.

I summary, I find all Camillan units to be great at their tasks except for Hastati. Even the Hastati are not really that bad and work as excellent meat grinders, which is historically, their role.

I feel like Camillian units are overpowered in my Romani campaign...

Camillian Roman units are like zerglings...they're cheap and die fast, but the AI can pump them out faster than you can kill them.

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Originally Posted by Intranetusa

Camillian Roman units are like zerglings...they're cheap and die fast, but the AI can pump them out faster than you can kill them.

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Seconded on Camillan Hastati and Leves....

Actually, you must understand on how the Camillan hastati are used, they are used as primary front line infantry to tire your enemy, but as in RTW everyone get tired too fast (and there was a mere difference for tired units to fresh one), Hastati is used as center holding, while the Princeps do the flanking

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Originally Posted by fallen851

I feel like Camillian units are overpowered in my Romani campaign...

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For the player maybe、but the ki is helpless with them, cause you can just overun them with cavallery.
Every faction with phalangitai is way more deadly in the KIs hand.:book:

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Originally Posted by seienchin

For the player maybe、but the ki is helpless with them, cause you can just overun them with cavallery.
Every faction with phalangitai is way more deadly in the KIs hand.:book:

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So don't blame the AI if their camillan roosters are mostly triarii

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Originally Posted by Sonic

So don't blame the AI if their camillan roosters are mostly triarii

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Camillian triariis are one of my all time favorite units! :D

They look awesome and have great stats as an above average/semi-elite hoplite...I usually build 2-3 full stacks of entirely triariis as my "elite troops" to punch through the crazy 3 silver chevron barbaro elites in the north. (this is with TW fanatic's phalanx mod)


After the reforms, I like to keep them around guarding the pennisula against pirates and any naval invasions.

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Originally Posted by Sonic

So don't blame the AI if their camillan roosters are mostly triarii

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I thought that only the Sweboz was able to recruit the unit Rooster.:inquisitive:

Haven't had that before. In fact fighting the romans is very hard all the times (for me). What is your difficulty-setting for the battles? That could possibly be the issue...

Anyway, is the AI supposed to have the reforms earlier than you can achieve them? I was playing the romanii and got attacked by sweboz elite-pikeman (wich are quite strong)...and that was in 242 BC...they only had 6 settlements at that time and they weren’t fully developed yet...seems a bit unlikely to me that they already met the requirements for the reform.

I was playing on medium battle difficulty.

are u serious with that statement about the hastatii? I mean, I've conquered all my lands thanks to them!! they hold on like if there were no return! speciallly when they are put in guard mod, not even GOD moves them!
I have recieved calvary charges, multiple superior in-the-role enemies (as getasae or whatever) and they are superb in what I used them for: tiring the enemy, then I let the others make the dirty job and slaughter those smelly gauls!

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Originally Posted by Metaluis90

are u serious with that statement about the hastatii? I mean, I've conquered all my lands thanks to them!! they hold on like if there were no return! speciallly when they are put in guard mod, not even GOD moves them!
I have recieved calvary charges, multiple superior in-the-role enemies (as getasae or whatever) and they are superb in what I used them for: tiring the enemy, then I let the others make the dirty job and slaughter those smelly gauls!

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Yeah, I'm serious. AI controlled Hastati simply disintegrated when faced with my Samnitici Milites.

However, when I was finally able to recruit Hastati in Italy as Carthage, I faced no such problems: they held reasonably well, even against Gestatae.

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Originally Posted by Optimus Tertius

Haven't had that before. In fact fighting the romans is very hard all the times (for me). What is your difficulty-setting for the battles? That could possibly be the issue...

Anyway, is the AI supposed to have the reforms earlier than you can achieve them? I was playing the romanii and got attacked by sweboz elite-pikeman (wich are quite strong)...and that was in 242 BC...they only had 6 settlements at that time and they weren’t fully developed yet...seems a bit unlikely to me that they already met the requirements for the reform.

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The Germanic pikemen aren't reform units. They're available from the beginning with the level 5 MIC. The Swebox reforms give them Germanic Heavy Infantry and Germanic Heavy Cavalry, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Drag0nUL

Yeah, I'm serious. AI controlled Hastati simply disintegrated when faced with my Samnitici Milites.

However, when I was finally able to recruit Hastati in Italy as Carthage, I faced no such problems: they held reasonably well, even against Gestatae.

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well, i've never had played against romans in any campaign, I mean, i've never encountered them (I've played with Pontos, Saba and Roma itself), so I can't make any statement about it.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

I thought that only the Sweboz was able to recruit the unit Rooster.:inquisitive:

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i lol'd

On reformed Germans and a question https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=389