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Apparently, the miniscule font was not enough to minimize the impact of scripture. Several nations have called for kits to remove the existing scriptural references from these weapon sights.
So, is this a legitimate response by various national militaries or an silly waste of funds and effort on something that is irrelevant?
Your thoughts?
Scripture has no place on military weaponry, particularly:
1) Given that the military is an arm of the Secular institution of the State.
2) They are serving in a war against religious fundamentalism. This certainly wouldn't help.
Seems overblown. I can see why the military wouldn't want them on there, and manufacturer probably should have mentioned it, but I don't think any laws were broken.
And it seems Al Queda didn't learn about it until now, so the article might become self-fulfilling in terms of outrage generated over the markings.
Finally, there's the whole irony of putting the words of Christ on a military scope. I guess this may be the scope of choice for the 'Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" folks.
CR
Definitely seems strange to put New Testament stuff on military hardware. Maybe they were inspired by Private Jackson in SPR.
+1, That's game, set, and match to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
I share a country with people of all faiths and to do this certianly puts one of those faiths high on a pecking order which shouldn't exsist in the first place.
The governments really should check these things out.
It's quite customary in the Norwegian army to chip off the cross on the "kings mark" on the beret...
Makes people feel better.
I wonder what the reaction would be if the Inshallah was found on an abandoned stack of Taliban AK-47s.
Not in keeping with the principles of a secular state, no.* However, it also isn't worth wasting money to fix when there are more pressing matters at hand.Quote:
Soldiers in Afghanistan have been unknowingly using rifles stamped with references to verses from the New Testament.
*If the soldiers had inscribed them themselves, that would be alright in my view.
Yes, I can see the headlines now:Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotan
Breaking News! Taliban are Muslims!
Putting in quotes from the lovey dovey jesusey part of the bible doesn't make sense, if they are going to put in anything it should be from the old testament Lev 24:20 would be a good one.
I would prefer Ezekiel 25 17. I just like the Pulp Fiction reference :laugh4:
The gun sight that says "Aimin'" with every shot at its pray. :2thumbsup:
Going along with how overblown this matter is, if I am given to understand the articles I have read correctly, the sights do not even contain the actual verses, but rather their designation (e.g. J5:14 - short for John 5:14).
That said, I am outraged. But changing this would be even more outrageous. Just tell the military supplier to cut the crap.
EDIT: Good Lord, Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary, I looked up John 5:14, a number combination I randomly created (I swear it is true), and it says Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.". Is this a good time to recant my atheism? :skull::tongue:
It was a really stupid thing to do, and they damn well knew it considering they didn't fess up until busted on the matter.
Of course, had they not done it, we wouldn't get Gregoshi comments
:yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
As matter of fact, it really doesn’t matter…
Did the Afghan holly warriors hesitated to use the Atheist AK? No
Will they hesitate to use this weapon? No.
It is a hurricane in a glass of water.
Will this gave another propaganda tool to the Ultra fascist/Muslim? So what? At least it is one they won’t make up…
“I wonder what the reaction would be if the Inshallah was found on an abandoned stack of Taliban AK-47s.”
Saw it in Bosnia. Made no head lines… Of course, the Bosnians were the good at the time…
It is quite stupid to put this on a weapon but, and I am atheist, I won’t really care. In fact, it makes me laugh as an example of religious hypocrisy: “Trijicon, (weapon factory) founded by a devoutly Christian South African”…
I though religion came from latin word meaning link… The link between the Creator and his creature… Here it is the line of fire….:beam:
“ I will walk in the valley etc…”
:laugh4:
it is a storm in a teacup that really isn't worth a tiny bit of moral outrage on the part of purchasing governments, but it is impressive that the company has been so proactive in offering to provide removal kits to past customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
If you're gonna have references to Christian scripture in a killing machine I propose we start putting it on condoms as well.....to keep the irony level equal.
I propose we use Revelations 22:20 - "He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
But I suppose some people would take issue with that :laugh4:
C'mon people. It's "tempest in a teapot." :wall:
Oh, and Trijicon makes awesome sights. I really don't care.
Old news :clown: I read about this in the newspaper about 2 weeks ago.
The reaction may seem overblown to some, but it was a stupid thing to do in the first place. If Hezbollah used AK-47's with qu'ran verses written on them, I'd bet it would be frequently used as anecdotal evidence that they're a bunch of fundamentalists :book:
Thread over.Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
really.............?
I so want the manufacturer to produce guns with the model number J5 14
Such pragmatic people.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I think that it is something that is better not done (for a number of reasons), and that various militaries should tell the company to stop putting them on if they want to keep their contracts, but I think that wasting the time and money to have them removed is just as ridiculous. If I understand correctly, the current director of the company is not even Christian. They are kept on to carry on the founder's tradition, as a quaint piece of company history, not a conversion method. That said though, as I stated above, the military should instruct them not to inscribe them on military sites.
Your uncle, Colonel von Witzland, is a good friend. He asked me to look out for you.
"God is with us." These words are on every German's belt buckle. There is no holier work than defending Western Christian values against Eastern Bolshevism. And that's what sets you apart from the Bolsheviks, who have no time for God. You are never alone. Even when deep in enemy territory.
Rather inconsequential. Do any soldiers care?
The fact that the scripture exists on the weapons is inappropriate, in the matter of desecrating your religion by decorating guns with them. But this doesn't affect the weapon itself, does it? No, it is not some big metal doohickey that weighs more than the rifle itself, but looks "cool", it is some tiny font, utterly inconsequential in a firefight, patrol, firing exercise, or whatnot. If removal is this text just meant a phone call to the manufacturer, all would be well. But it apparently means that we must spend lots and lots of money on a problem of such miniscule proportions, so scrap that, keep shooting guys with god-adourned guns.
Yeah, that'll make it easy to counter accusations that we are "Jews and Crusaders" attacking the innocent Muslim world... Oh, wait.
I think most of you have missed the point since CA's post, especially his second.Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
Providing western soldiers with "holy" or religiously inspired weapons most unfortunately plays into the idea that Iraq and Afghanistan are Christian crusades, simply a continuation of what is seen by Muslims as an oft-recurring tradition of the Christian west imposing itself on Muslims and oppressing them, begun in 1095 and perpetuated through European colonisation to the present day.
In the west we bandy the word "crusade" around liberaly (maybe because we had so many), whereas to Muslims the word crusade is associated with some deep historical scars. To be fair, the west (especially america) is often used as a scapegoat for the Muslim world's weakness and fragmentation.
Anyway, at a time when western diplomats and commanders are trying to woo the "moderate" Taliban (Arabic for "religious students") in Afghanistan, any mention/insinuation that the west is on a religiously inspired mission to oppress Muslims (again) is more than a little counter-productive...
Apart from the likelihood that Jesus Guns are Pat Robertson approved...it's just not a wise "winning the hearts & minds" logo to add to the conspiracy theorists propoganda arsenal. At least make them work harder at it.