Effective use of chariots? (and a few other unit tips needed)

Recently, I've had some pretty interesting developments in my AS campaign. The year is 225 BC and after sitting on their starting province until now, Pontos went on the offensive.

Since all my armies are too far away (1 stack in North Africa fighting Carthage, another one in India and the 'royal army' -commanded by the faction leader and the only one allowed to contain Angyraspides and TABs- is busy in the south of Arabia) I had to raise a new army to contain the menace (already lost most of central Anatolia in the 6-7 turns it took me to raise a decent fighting force).

I decided to give a few 'new' units a try (units that I had never used before, or used too little):

First of all Scythed Chariots. Despite looking good on paper, they fail to deliver. Maneuvering them in any direction other than forward is a nightmare (they always seem to turn at awkward angles) and after the initial charge they tend to get 'stuck' in the enmy unit, and just die there. anyone found an effective way to use these things(other than keeping them in the second line for th fear effect) ?

Also, Peltasts (and skirmishers in general). Despite being a significat part of many ancient armies, they just seem pretty useless to me: too few javelins to cause significat casualties and javelin range is so short they tend to spend more time running around than shooting. also, as light melee infantry (talking peltast and similar units here, since lighter skirmishers are pretty much worthless in melee) I find it's better to actually get some non-skirmishing light infantry (galatian shortswordmen or jewish spearmen for AS). Is there something I'm missing here?

Hetairoi Aspidophoroi: The only effective use I've found for skirmish cavalry is annoying enemy flanks in the hope of drawing some troops away from the main battle and hunting down routers. For both of those the Hetairoi Aspidophoroi don't perform significantly better than their lighter (and much cheaper) counterparts. Also, their melee ability is unimpressive also (had one unit of these owned by one unit of karians, light infantry with which IMHO sword cavalry shouldn't have too much trouble with).

Wow... NEVER try to use chariots in a realistic, historical way in Eb. It doesnt work. :dizzy2:
But they scare the enemy and are cavallery killers, esspecialy while they are routing (Yes its crazy, but its true^^). So navigate them behind the enemy, atack their cavallery and they are at least decent.

Peltasts are great! They are usefull in melee also.

The hetairoi skirmishers are skirmisher cavallery so forget about them. They are terrible.:furious3:

1)
When using chariots, never make them charge in a unit, just make them go pass the unit, ie klick behind the unit. It will not deliver many kills, probably none, but it will completly brake the enemy formation, make theire morale to go on the very low. Have some elites, preferably heavy cavalry ready to follow the chariots. I routed many units this way.
2)
Peltast are very good imho. They are very mobile, and are able to stand up to most medium infantry.
3)
The hetairoi are a decent bunch. I find most use from them in engaging enemy cavalry. Also they fare quite decently against light infantry. At least "decenter" than those cheaper cavalry u mentioned

1) Harmata Draphanephora are worthless because of their hoorible morale.... Cidainh is waay better because they had guts to made them withdrawn themself nicely after wrecking enemy infantry formations.... but Hellenic chariots are just charge and rout... mostly

2) Turn off their skirmish mode then peltasts can hold themself quite well, except facing heavy cavalries

3) Hetairoi aspidophoroi are still the best when it comes to hackin and slashin through massive low class enemy infantries.... just made sure they don't face proper spearmen

Thanks for your answers so far
From your posts I understand that you employ peltasts as light infantry rather than skirmishers, is that correct?

Peltasts are very versatile, you can employ them as skirmishers and as light infantry both.

If used as skirmishers, do not let them attack from the front, either keep them behind your line with skirmish mode off to shower the enemy with javelins while your infantry fight them or maneuvre them behind the enemy line or to his weapon side with Fire at Will off, them turn it on and watch the havoc. This is especially good if your infantry is engaging the same enemy from the front in Guard mode.

Skirmisher cavalry is used the same.

Chariots I have no experience with. I would probably use them like my german scare units, keeping them behind the line to scare out of range of most missiles, then charging as the enemy waver, Seinchin's way sounds best.

Most important thing about Chariots. KEEP THEM MOVING If you dont they wont kill or knock the enemy to the ground and just get killed.

Use them like stated before, making the decisive move, when you got the main line routing you have to run them through the whole group while attacking. HUGE KILLS.

Had this experience with Pontos.

~Fluvius

Chariots:

As it has been said already, don't send them into melee, but let them just ride trough the enemy formation, by klicking behind the hostile army. They will run through and break off the enemy formation, making their morale lower at the same time. Before the enemy can regroup his formation, go in with heavy cavalry and make them rout. That's how to use these chariots effectivly. If they are enganged....retreat.


Peltastai:

Peltasts are actually quite useful. They can hold their line agaist most light and medium infantrymen, you only have to avoid cavalry. They are best used for flanking the enemy, pelting him from behind (or the flank) and then engange his rear, while heavier melee infantry is holding your first battle line.

Peltasts can hold a city wall even against heavier infantry or at least make the enemy suffer from many losses.


Skirmisher Cav:

Hippakontistai and similar skrikmisher cavalry are not as useless as they are often said to be. Of course you should not use them in melee. But they are fast. Let them irritate the enemy by riding around his flanks, pelting him with javelins. Doing that from the rear can cause many casualties among the enemy's troops, even among heavier ones. Especially if your cav. is somewhat experienced .

In melee you only use them against other troops for attacks in the rear, while the enemy is bound by your frontline, or to engange other cavalry, combined with one or two units of heavy cavalry of yours. Let the heavy cavalry engange the enemy and at the same time, let the light cavalry attack the flanks. If they arrive at the same time, the enemy cavalry unit will be crushed instantly.


An important part of any battle is hunting down the enemy. You couldn't have a more effective unit to do that job, than your light and fast cavalry. The enemy general is routing with the rest of his bodyguard? If someone can still reach him, it's your light skirmisher cav. Not sure, but Hippakontistai may be faster than Hetairoi Aspidophoroi. And even more effective than Hippakontistai, are - IIRC - the eastern and arabian equivalents.

Aye.

Chariots do tend to require quite a lot of micromanagment, but they are very effective in the end.

Peltasts. To get the best use from these they should engage in melee only after they have expended all their javelins. Firing 5-6 volleys into the back of some powerful heavy infantry, then charging in to finish them off is often the most effective option. Head on fighting against proper infantry generally doesnt work though. Use them as a support and flanking force. No other infantry type is better at it in my opinion. I tend to turn skirmish mode off once the main battle lines have engaged, but leave it on until then.

Hetairoi aspidophoroi seem to beat most other non-elite cavalry in melee. They are also great for getting stuck into and overpowering units like peltasts. Their javelins are a bonus - not their main feature.

Well the thing about heavy skirmisher cav is (for me) that they fulfill the role of regular skrimisher cav but after having used their javelins, they still do a decent job in charging the enemy's lines in the back.
So harass the enemy, maybe draw away a unit and outmaneuver them and then BAM! make the enemy rout!

Chariots are great for disrupting enemy formations, but as stated, they need to be kept moving. One great way to cause chaos is to have lots of chariots go straight through the middle of an army line or two, and then have your troops running along behind to quickly fill the gap created by the chariots.

This splits the main force in two AND gets your chariots behind the enemy, and in a really good position to harass and cause more havoc (or deal with pesky cavalry). Force your infantry to widen the gap you've created, and at that point, units will begin to rout. I've done this before but it requires timing and a great opportunity (like really light infantry units and missile units positioned in the middle of an army both on the front and rear lines). It worked well enough in Vanilla Rome when I was dealing with the Romans as the Bretons, though whether the same concept can work in EB, I'll have to see. Custom battle time!

TL;DR: Keep Chariots moving or they lose.

Useless?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img262.imageshack.us/img262/...epeltastai.jpg
This - is - (retarded AI)

Why do you play on huge? not enough pop.

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Originally Posted by vartan

Why do you play on huge? not enough pop.

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Playing on huge is fine, as long as you're careful with recruiting. Recruit from only the largest towns under your control, or those with very high population growth. Also, don't recruit too many units. Finally, if you've got lots of money, recruit mercenaries to supplement your armies, since mercenaries don't reduce your population.

I play on huge as well, by far the best setting if you keep your wits about you with recruiting. Only in rare instances do the AI depopulate its cities badly (if they are only province left).

I play on Huge as it's aesthetically the most appealing seeting if your PC can handle it. It also makes battle "clumsier" so you don't have absolutely perfect control and often random crashes between units occur and that for me adds to the fun. Recruitment just adds a bit of spice to the challenge, as you need to micromanage recruitment + supply lines.

As for AI depleting it's population - it's very unlikely to happen, as script gives AI 200 population back for every unit recruited. So by recruiting say a peltast unit they actually gain 40 population from nowhere. They do lose 40 when recruiting phalangites, but that seems to average itself out. So no problems for the AI.

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Originally Posted by ziegenpeter

Well the thing about heavy skirmisher cav is (for me) that they fulfill the role of regular skrimisher cav but after having used their javelins, they still do a decent job in charging the enemy's lines in the back.
So harass the enemy, maybe draw away a unit and outmaneuver them and then BAM! make the enemy rout!

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Yes, exactly! That's how to use them



I've never played anything else than huge. No problem with pop. You don't need to recruit fullstack after fullstack to get your campaing successfully going.

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Originally Posted by vartan

Why do you play on huge? not enough pop.

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Were you referring to my post? If so, I have only one answer: Because it is the most realistic setting.

Depopulation is not really a problem for a good player. I guess most people don't play on huge settings only because they want to prevent a performance lag.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Were you referring to my post? If so, I have only one answer: Because it is the most realistic setting.

Depopulation is not really a problem for a good player. I guess most people don't play on huge settings only because they want to prevent a performance lag.

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I've only encountered the problem with depopulation once in Vanilla Rome. Since then, I readjusted myself and was able to take into account recruiting population effects, and simply spread my recruiting area over a larger area. Simply put, the smaller regions became my money-making regions, and the larger ones became more recruiting hubs, but I had to keep a good balance between them all. One just has to do the recruiting more thoughtfully and plan things out more carefully. Also, it helps not to lose whole massive armies to ambushes.

I already posted my opinion to the use of the units, but I read other advises and have something to ad.


SKIRMISHER CAVALLERY:
They arent the best cavallery in melee. That is a misinterpretation of unit stats. Heavy lancers are just as good. Their unit cards just show their atack value with their lances, but not their second melee weapons. All of Ebs cavallery have them.
On the other hand lances are often AP, which makes them also quite usefull in melee.
Or in other words:
Skirmisher cavallery has no advantages over other cavallery. They are just mediocre:book:

Chariots: go for the flank (frontal attacks often get them stuck in enemy formations), keep the enemy cavalry away from them, and whatever you do, don't give anyone on the opposing side time to throw javelins at the chariots, since they'll drop like flies. Also, find a way to get rid of other enemy missile troops before you deploy the chariots.

Heavy peltasts are among the best and most versatile troops there are.

Skirmisher Cavalry: great against Gauls and Celts, and against most low level eastern infantry. They are also great cheap cavalry that you may find yourself needing if you ever fight against steppe horsemen.

EDIT: Scythed chariots saved my butt in my Pontic Campaign. They're the only real defense I had against the huge numbers of Successor infantry.

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Originally Posted by seienchin

I
Skirmisher cavallery has no advantages over other cavallery. They are just mediocre:book:

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Hetairoi Aspidophoroi {602 Mnai} are cheaper than lancer Hetaroi {1153 Mnai} , Lonchophoroi Hippeis {784 Mnai} , and the Thessalikoi based chargers , can park on the arse of engaged elite infantry and fill them with 600 javlins or put those javlins into elephants before they hit your line whilst still being able to beat most cavalry that can catch them .

The only real question then becomes : can you make better use of Hetairoi Aspidophoroi {with their javlins} or Prodromoi whom are only slightly cheaper ?

When you only have 2 spots left in a stack and muct choose between Hetairoi Aspidophoroi and Prodromoi , against Successor armies it makes sense to take the Aspidophoroi as pike units usually "magically" turn all their pikes to the rear when charged from behind killing your charger cavalry and can take a long time to rout {especially the elites} thus killing more so javlins to their backs {cavalry can flank much quicker and more effectivly than infantry} from a cav unit that can still quickly fight their way through most enemy cavalry and skirmishers {that get in the way of a charge} are a good companion to sarrissa armed Hetairoi .

In response to the chariot tactis, i take it these tactics are also applicable to Casse chariots even though there are less heavily armed?

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Originally Posted by Brennus

In response to the chariot tactis, i take it these tactics are also applicable to Casse chariots even though there are less heavily armed?

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Generally, yes. Your biggest goal with any chariot unit is to simply keep them moving and do not let them get bogged down at any cost. Casse chariots will not kill as many enemies as Scythed chariots do when they run through enemy units, however they will still greatly disrupt enemy formations when they knock down soldiers and they still kill cavalry quite well if you keep them running through them. I actually find Casse chariots to be more useful than Scythed chariots because they have 16 morale instead of the abysmal 6 morale of the Scythed chariots, they do not run amok, and they inspire nearby friendly troops while frightening nearby enemy infantry (even the non-bodyguard versions do this).

Where is Gabeed? Summer tourney in July of '09 saw great chariot usage from Gabeed and his Casse.

Skirmishers + Skirmisher Cavalry:


The problem with both these units is that the basic, bottom-dollar version is useful for little more than a couple of hundred extra javalins and then numbers thrown kamikaze style into a battle you are losing. A couple of hundred extra javalins is no small benefit, but once done the unit is pretty much useless.

Once you get to mid tier versions of Skirmishers and Skirmisher Cavalry, the units become multi-purpose units, combining the speed and range and ammo quantity of the basic skirmisher with some basic and not-so-basic equipment to fulfill very useful battlefield roles. Peltastai in particular are very useful, and in practice fairly elite, units to have on a battlefield with their reasonably formation cohesion, reasonable armour/skill/shield and their swords. Numerous, manouverable and effective at hand-to-hand combat means these units in particular are key to much early Hellenic and Diadochi combat with their ability to get to key areas of the battlefield quickly and perform effectively. Thraikioi Peltastai are the elite of the middle tier with armour piercing weaponry, pretty much perfectly designed for chewing through phalanxes or isolating and defeating heavier units.

Units like Thureophoroi and Wargozez could/should also be considered skirmishers, not ineffective and numerous javalin troops, but instead highly mobile and highly effective contextual troops designed for reacting to the progress of a battle and occupying key roles at key positions at key times. That is the important aspect to realise about skirmishers, in order to understand their role on the battlefield. A skirmisher unit is not a useless unit, a frail unit, chucking javalins. A skirmisher is a crucial contextual unit.

This is why the Pheraspidai, or Peltastai Makedonikoi, is described as being both an elite, expensive assault infantry/royal guard while also being described as a skirmisher, because that is precisely what it is. Peltastai Makedonikoi and Agrianikio Pelekuphoroi are elite skirmishers with the role of decisively winning key engagements on the battlefield, even if they are against supposedly "junk" troops, in order to then win the battle as a whole.

Skirmishers do not simply throw javalins. They engage and win the key skirmishes on the battlefield open the road to victory, or atleast attempt to prevent/delay defeat. While they may not be the most expensive or impressive looking troops, they are arguably the most important in many if not all styles of combat. If I remember correctly, Alexander the Great used his heavy infantry and much of his heavier cavalry as the guards of his flanks in many battles, while he employed his Hetaroi and elite "skirmishers" to smash straight through the crucial point of the opponents line.

Whether the crucial point of the battle is on the flanks, or through the middle, or anywhere else on the field, that is where the skirmishers are to be employed defeating the opponents key detail.


As for skirmisher cavalry, the general trend is towards disrupting the opponents line with javalins, before retreating to a safe distance and then outflanking the opponents lighter troops while maybe taking part in a charge. However there are variations to this theme, and units like Argyn Marca (Caledonian Noble Cavalry) combine ranged attacks with significant melee capability through armour values and sword lethality. Argyn Marca are a cross between light and heavy cavalry, swapping spear/lance for lethal Celtic swords, capable of fulfilling the role of skirmisher cavalry to an excellent degree, disrupting the opponent with javalins and then engaging with significant staying/killing power in melee. In this respect the Argyn Marca would be the cavalry version of the Peltastai Makedonikoi.

So when looking at skirmishers, javalins are invariably plentiful but are a subsidiary concern in comparison to the actual battelfield function and capability of the unit. Speed and manouverability is a given, and indeed any unit with speed and manouverability could be argued to be a skirmisher. The crucial detail is what they can do, how they can perform in combat. Thureophoroi are skirmisher spearmen, Peltastai are skirmisher multi-purpose "jack-of-all master-of-none" medium infantry, while the Agrianikio / Thraikioi Peltastai are armour destroying, phalanx gutting skirmishers, and the Peltastai Makedonikoi are skirmishers with immense defensive capability and staying power and mass designed to bring power and stamina to all "skirmishes" no matter how large and crucial.