Using a thief to catch thieves?

The German government is currently considering the purchase of a data CD with information on 1500 potential tax-evaders.
The problem: the data has been illegaly obtained by the informant who is now offering it for sale

German government weighs up moral dilemma over Swiss tax-dodge secrets

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Germany politicans are grappling with the thorny question of whether to buy information on possible tax-evaders with Swiss Bank accounts. Switzerland warns that politicians would be doing business with criminals.

Politicians in Germany are trying to decide on the legality and morality of buying a stolen CD containing data of 1,500 possible tax-evaders with Swiss accounts.
The moral questions raised have prompted debate from all sides of the political spectrum with Switzerland warning that buying the CD would be illegal.
"Generally speaking we believe that it is difficult for states to use illegal data," said Swiss President Doris Leuthard. "This would mean doing business with criminals, which is against the law."
An informant is asking for 2.5 million euros ($3.5 million) for the confidential data, according to the German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Tax investigators believe the information could bring in as much 100 million euros for the government.

Questions of legality

A senior ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel, Defence Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, said the government would need to check the legal validity of the data.
"I have a problem with handing over money for something that has come into someone's possession in a legally questionable fashion," Guttenberg told Swiss daily Neue Zuercher Zeitung.
But Greens and Social Democrats have encouraged the government to buy the data on behalf of "honest taxpayers."
Some politicians from Chancellor Merkel's Christian Democrat party have also called for the purchase of the CD to be considered. Lower Saxony’s finance minister, Hartmut Moellring said in an interview with radio station Deutschlandfunk that he had no objection to buying it, provided that the information could be used in court.
"If the state gets information on tax evaders, it must pursue them," said Moellring. "It’s a question of justice."

Hot in the press

Both the Allgemeine Zeitung and Sueddeutsche Zeitung first reported on the offer. Officials in Berlin confirmed the reports on Saturday.
The informant reportedly handed over information on five individuals to prove the data's validity.
Both newspapers reported the data was offered to tax officials in the western state of North Rhine-Westphalia.
The Financial Times Deutschland reported on Monday that the data had come from a computer specialist at an HSBC private bank in Geneva.

rc/acb/AFP/dpa
Editor: Rob Turner

I have to admit I am very much on the fence regarding this issue. I have little sympathy for the tax evaders who would get caught if the government buys the data and it would certainly be a good "investment".
OTOH, buying data from some greedy criminal stinks. This is not a question of national security and the government might be better advised to catch tax-evaders the legal way (investing in the required manpower is AFAIK still provides a good ROI), so I am somewhat leaning towards not buying it.

What do other people think?

'Moral dilemma'? Sometimes people who pretend to be moral amuse me so much...

This can make it to the News of the Weird...

Who are the real thieves, that's what I think.

"The problem: the data has been illegaly obtained by the informant who is now offering it for sale"

If I would lose any money because of him I would cut of all his fingers and put them in the blender to be sure they can't be reattached.

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

The German government is currently considering the purchase of a data CD with information on 1500 potential tax-evaders.
The problem: the data has been illegaly obtained by the informant who is now offering it for sale

German government weighs up moral dilemma over Swiss tax-dodge secrets

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Germany politicans are grappling with the thorny question of whether to buy information on possible tax-evaders with Swiss Bank accounts. Switzerland warns that politicians would be doing business with criminals.

Politicians in Germany are trying to decide on the legality and morality of buying a stolen CD containing data of 1,500 possible tax-evaders with Swiss accounts.
The moral questions raised have prompted debate from all sides of the political spectrum with Switzerland warning that buying the CD would be illegal.
"Generally speaking we believe that it is difficult for states to use illegal data," said Swiss President Doris Leuthard. "This would mean doing business with criminals, which is against the law."
An informant is asking for 2.5 million euros ($3.5 million) for the confidential data, according to the German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Tax investigators believe the information could bring in as much 100 million euros for the government.

Questions of legality

A senior ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel, Defence Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, said the government would need to check the legal validity of the data.
"I have a problem with handing over money for something that has come into someone's possession in a legally questionable fashion," Guttenberg told Swiss daily Neue Zuercher Zeitung.
But Greens and Social Democrats have encouraged the government to buy the data on behalf of "honest taxpayers."
Some politicians from Chancellor Merkel's Christian Democrat party have also called for the purchase of the CD to be considered. Lower Saxony’s finance minister, Hartmut Moellring said in an interview with radio station Deutschlandfunk that he had no objection to buying it, provided that the information could be used in court.
"If the state gets information on tax evaders, it must pursue them," said Moellring. "It’s a question of justice."

Hot in the press

Both the Allgemeine Zeitung and Sueddeutsche Zeitung first reported on the offer. Officials in Berlin confirmed the reports on Saturday.
The informant reportedly handed over information on five individuals to prove the data's validity.
Both newspapers reported the data was offered to tax officials in the western state of North Rhine-Westphalia.
The Financial Times Deutschland reported on Monday that the data had come from a computer specialist at an HSBC private bank in Geneva.

rc/acb/AFP/dpa
Editor: Rob Turner

I have to admit I am very much on the fence regarding this issue. I have little sympathy for the tax evaders who would get caught if the government buys the data and it would certainly be a good "investment".
OTOH, buying data from some greedy criminal stinks. This is not a question of national security and the government might be better advised to catch tax-evaders the legal way (investing in the required manpower is AFAIK still provides a good ROI), so I am somewhat leaning towards not buying it.

What do other people think?

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"Buy" it, then arrest the criminals and get the money back.

Pay 2.5 mil for a 100 mil return? Hmm, tempting. But:

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The Financial Times Deutschland reported on Monday that the data had come from a computer specialist at an HSBC private bank in Geneva.

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*I pause here to note that a small-ish earthquake just shook my house for about 4 seconds*

so the CD is stolen property. Cannot use it, in my opinion - especially now that it's been made public by the newspapers. It would encourage more info piracy, which would back-fire, in the long run.

Next question is: Does Germany have a duty to arrest & prosecute the seller, and/or report the source to Geneva?

That thief is the best thief one can find. If government could employ thieves like those, I wouldn't mind there being a business that dedicates itself to tracking down tax evaders and selling that information to governments. It would make people think twice before comitting tax evasion, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

That thief is the best thief one can find. If government could employ thieves like those, I wouldn't mind there being a business that dedicates itself to tracking down tax evaders and selling that information to governments. It would make people think twice before comitting tax evasion, that's for sure.

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What's funny about this is that were the disk freely given to the Govt, e.g by an investigative journalist, they would not hesitate to use it. Paying for the service of hacking an HSBC server is presumably what causes the sticking point. Fool of a person who thought they could sell the disc...

Not really a thief, it seems to be more of a mole within the bank who is willing to sell the info for some back-pocket.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Not really a thief, it seems to be more of a mole within the bank who is willing to sell the info for some back-pocket.

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Well he's likely to be out of a job very soon, if not already.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

Well he's likely to be out of a job very soon, if not already.

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That is true. The price of being a mole.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

"Buy" it, then arrest the criminals and get the money back.

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I approve.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

I approve.

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Well, then it's just evidence of a crime gained arresting someone for another crime.

Not of a crime...if the German government intended to prosecute the tax-evaders as suspects of a crime, the evidence would be inadmissible. It can, however, be used to prove that they still owe the government taxes.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Not of a crime...if the German government intended to prosecute the tax-evaders as suspects of a crime, the evidence would be inadmissible. It can, however, be used to prove that they still owe the government taxes.

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If they arrested someone for breaking into a bank computer and discovered evidence of other felons' tax-evasion on the hacker the evidence for tax-evasion would be inadmissable?

If that was true Al Capone would never have been convicted!

I'd be for getting it, but payment would be very much dependant on results. If those that evade taxes fear that they might be found, less will do so. Assuming that there are hefty fines for getting caught, this will have payoffs down the line too.

~:smoking:

It's wrong, and I'm against it. The government has rules they must follow to obtain evidence. To bypass those rules is to take people's rights away. Paying a thief to get info the government couldn't is using a contractor to bypass the laws put in place to protect the rights of citizens, and therefore destroys those rights.

CR

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

If they arrested someone for breaking into a bank computer and discovered evidence of other felons' tax-evasion on the hacker the evidence for tax-evasion would be inadmissable?

If that was true Al Capone would never have been convicted!

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That would be a different situation. There's no intent on the government's part to evade restrictions on evidence gathering in your scenario, they just luckily stumble on it.

In the current, real life scenario, the German government would basically evade all rules on how to acquire evidence by simply buying it from a third party who isn't bound by said rules. Crazed Rabbit is right, it might not be against the letter of the law but it's certainly agains the spirit. OTOH a tax debt is not a "punishment", criminal law doesn't come into play until they decide to prosecute you for deliberately evading taxes.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

It's wrong, and I'm against it. The government has rules they must follow to obtain evidence. To bypass those rules is to take people's rights away. Paying a thief to get info the government couldn't is using a contractor to bypass the laws put in place to protect the rights of citizens, and therefore destroys those rights.

CR

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Wouldn't that also apply if the thief gave the information for free as well? As he have broken company policy and probably a contract or two as well? I wouldn't approve of it benig used as the only evidence, but it could be used to find legally obtained evidence to use.

Tough one. I would go with accepting it on the basis that exposing crimes should be rewarded, but it should be heavily depended on the quality of the information mainly since it still gives me a sour taste and to try to prevent attemts to abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

It's wrong, and I'm against it. The government has rules they must follow to obtain evidence. To bypass those rules is to take people's rights away. Paying a thief to get info the government couldn't is using a contractor to bypass the laws put in place to protect the rights of citizens, and therefore destroys those rights.

CR

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I have to agree with CR here. Let the apocolypse come.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

That would be a different situation. There's no intent on the government's part to evade restrictions on evidence gathering in your scenario, they just luckily stumble on it.

In the current, real life scenario, the German government would basically evade all rules on how to acquire evidence by simply buying it from a third party who isn't bound by said rules. Crazed Rabbit is right, it might not be against the letter of the law but it's certainly agains the spirit. OTOH a tax debt is not a "punishment", criminal law doesn't come into play until they decide to prosecute you for deliberately evading taxes.

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Well, my point was that the relevant government agency should have arrested the thief for trying to sell illegally obtained information, and then used the information. They shouldn't have considered "buying it", however they could offer to buy it (lie to the thief in order to get him to incriminate himself for himself).

Yes, I have no problem with entrapment.

Other media (Reuters) have picked up the story. Reportedly, the Swiss gov't likens Germany's purchase of the data as "bank robbery".

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I have to agree with CR here. Let the apocolypse come.

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https://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h...cano_large.jpg

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Wouldn't that also apply if the thief gave the information for free as well? As he have broken company policy and probably a contract or two as well? I wouldn't approve of it benig used as the only evidence, but it could be used to find legally obtained evidence to use.

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Yes, it would apply. I'm still against it even if given for free and only used to find legal evidence. The starting evidence was illegally obtained and all that flowed from it should be illegal.

CR

easy solution, duh. buy the data. arrest evaders. try them in court. then arrest the guy with the cd for witholding valuable information regarding a crime from the governemnt. he got payed didnt he and then when you arrest him seize his estate. in the end you become far more wealthy.

I agree with CR, they shouldn't purchase or accept the CD. Not for collecting taxes. If it was something else, maybe.

Accept CD: +5 Renegade
Decline CD: +5 Paragon

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Other media (Reuters) have picked up the story. Reportedly, the Swiss gov't likens Germany's purchase of the data as "bank robbery".

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For the Swiss to take the high ground they're either bing ironic or have llost grip on reality. They are the bank of choice for dictators the world over.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

For the Swiss to take the high ground they're either bing ironic or have llost grip on reality. They are the bank of choice for dictators the world over.

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Ha!

Illegally obtained? Bah!

Any employee should be obligated to report any criminal activity his company is involved in. Buy it, then give the guy a medal.

Loyalty ends when there's a crime involved. And yes, tax evasion is a crime.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Illegally obtained? Bah!

Any employee should be obligated to report any criminal activity his company is involved in. Buy it, then give the guy a medal.

Loyalty ends when there's a crime involved. And yes, tax evasion is a crime.

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"sell for 2.5 million" is not the same as "report".

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

"sell for 2.5 million" is not the same as "report".

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Tomayto tomato.

He's taking on a huge risk, it's only fair to give him something for his troubles.