Citizen Militia, suggestion

In times of war and especially emergencies, it is customary for cities under siege or threat to mobilise everyone and their dogs, German Volkssturm for example. This is missing in RTW and MTW, sadly.

However, there is a mod (I forgot which one, but Winsington is a great fan), where cities under siege mobilise according to their size. So instead of the 4 units you had expected to face when sending your army to siege you may suddenly face 10- 12, albeit militia of a low quality.

Could this be an idea for EB II?

I would certainly love to see it.

Isnt there the problem that the units dont disapeare afterwards?

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

However, there is a mod (I forgot which one, but Winsington is a great fan), where cities under siege mobilise according to their size.

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That's gotta be the garrison script, known from TATW and a few other mods. However, it actually mobilizes all kinds of troops, including the nastier ones. IMO it would be weird to attack a city, only to find that somehow a Cataphract Elephant Militia has formed inside it.

I'm sure that the script can control what kind of units will be spawned. A garrison script was considered for EB1, but rejected because the campaign script is already bloated and the A.I. didn't deal very well with it, if I am not mistaken. Since both A.I. and scripting engine are improved in M2:TW, this may change.

The script can delete units of a certain name or those that share a certain attribute, this applies factionwide though so is not as useful as it sounds.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

In times of war and especially emergencies, it is customary for cities under siege or threat to mobilise everyone and their dogs, German Volkssturm for example. This is missing in RTW and MTW, sadly.

However, there is a mod (I forgot which one, but Winsington is a great fan), where cities under siege mobilise according to their size. So instead of the 4 units you had expected to face when sending your army to siege you may suddenly face 10- 12, albeit militia of a low quality.

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I take it you mean Chivalry II? It is a pretty decent mod, I wouldn't say I'm a great fan of anything other than EB though, haha, just because nothing else has accomplished the necessary level of historical accuracy.

@athanaric

Third Age does spawn high end as well as low end units, but that's not true of the garrison scripts in other mods. In Chivalry II the point of the garrison script is to represent the peasants and nobles of the province being armed and defending the city. This means that you end up facing basically 10 units of really really poor quality peasant levies (some with spears, some with bows, type depends on AOR) and 1 unit of nobles (since this is Medieval, in the form of mounted heavy cavalry, although the type depends on AOR). There may also be maybe 1 unit of say, mercenary spearmen hired by the nobles, but the vast majority of troops are very low quality. So, I think it's feasible because since you can link it to AOR it could be interesting in EB2. However, in some cases the garrison script can be a bit annoying, so I'm not sure if it will make it in.

The problem is - for me - that it then becomes very hard to starve out a settlement, something that did happen. They will always sally fort.

I just thought of a problem with this idea. Now, in Chivalry II, you only have 3 types of peasant levies (which actually means 6 units, because each type has both an archer and spear unit) and 4 or 5 types of AOR nobles (I can't recall exactly). The point is, that's 10 or 11 units that every faction in the game must have access to. The problem is, in EB and I'm assuming in EB2, they are/will be a much greater variety of AOR levies and "nobles," and the issue with that is I doubt every faction in the game has access to all of those different units. It might be OK from a levy perspective, because I think every faction has at least 1 or 2 low level units in each area that they can build, but in terms of "noble" units the access is more restricted. Note that for EB, I'm using the term nobles very loosely, to mean any higher end unit that would be raised from a wealthier class.

Take an example of the issues that could occur: The Koinon Hellenon has conquered Kallatis, and I'm trying to take it from them. To represent the mixed nature of this province, the garrison script should probably spawn not just Greek levies (Akontistai, Sphendonetai, Toxotai, Hoplitai Haploi) but also some Getai (Komatai) and Skythians (Skythian Foot/Horse Archers). In terms of "nobles," there should probably be a unit of regular Hoplitai to represent the wealthier members of the urban Greek population but also maybe a unit of Skythian Noble Cavalry to represent the rural nobles. Now, not only is that simply a lot of units, it's also two units (Komatai and Skythian Nobles) that the KH does not have access to. This is just one example of the problem that I think will occur quite a bit with trying to implement a garrison script in EB, considering the vast variety of levy and noble units.

You mean like in Empires Total war, when Civil Units spawn, when besieging a city? Would be great if that worked for EB II.

I'd love to see this implemented if possible. Ideally there'd be two levels (= buildings I guess) to represent provicial levies and city levies, callinmg up troops if there's an enemy stack in the province, and a bigger one if the city is attacked.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

.... Cataphract Elephant Militia...

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"Hey, you kids, get your spears and form up on the city walls. And you, yeah you, the pachyderm leaning against the wall, don't think I don't see you. Get that armour on, you're in the army now!" "Aww shucks".

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Originally Posted by bobbin

The script can delete units of a certain name or those that share a certain attribute, this applies factionwide though so is not as useful as it sounds.

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If the recruited boys don't disperse as easily as they coalesce, thats a bit of a bust.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

Take an example of the issues that could occur: The Koinon Hellenon has conquered Kallatis, and I'm trying to take it from them. To represent the mixed nature of this province, the garrison script should probably spawn not just Greek levies (Akontistai, Sphendonetai, Toxotai, Hoplitai Haploi) but also some Getai (Komatai) and Skythians (Skythian Foot/Horse Archers). In terms of "nobles," there should probably be a unit of regular Hoplitai to represent the wealthier members of the urban Greek population but also maybe a unit of Skythian Noble Cavalry to represent the rural nobles. Now, not only is that simply a lot of units, it's also two units (Komatai and Skythian Nobles) that the KH does not have access to. This is just one example of the problem that I think will occur quite a bit with trying to implement a garrison script in EB, considering the vast variety of levy and noble units.

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They can be put rather easily in the KH unit roster and made unrecruitible because of building limitations. In short: the Romani would be able to train every high end local elite unit in their highest factional MIC somewhere in India, which is a MIC that cannot be built anyway.

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Originally Posted by Andy1984

They can be put rather easily in the KH unit roster and made unrecruitible because of building limitations. In short: the Romani would be able to train every high end local elite unit in their highest factional MIC somewhere in India, which is a MIC that cannot be built anyway.

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That's an interesting solution, good idea. The only problem that still remains is the possibility of units that share models being unavailable. Since each faction can only have access to one of the model-sharing units and not the other, there would still be some units unavailable to certain factions. Off the top of my head, Persian-Archer Spearmen share a model with Arabian Archer-Spearmen, and both may be good candidates for garrison scripts in their respective locations. The problem is that any faction that can build Arabians will have a messed up garrison script in Persia and vice-versa. It's not as big of an issue but it's still something that should be dealt with.

Edit: I just remembered, the team said that they won't be using the MIC system in EB2.... so we cannot be sure if your solution would work for EB2, though it could for an EB1 garrison script.

You're right about the probable absence of factional and regional MIC's, so here goes another idea: How about the creation of a barrack (lvl 7) that cannot be build anywhere, which enables the recruitment of these local revolting units? (I am assuming extra barracks - or perhaps a stable/blacksmith can be created or the existing ones will not be fully used by the normal recruitment-lines.)

I think we shouldn't have to bring all respected militia and nobles for such garrison script... for KH anywhere, creating extra 3 hoplitai haplo, 1 akontistaii, 1 sphendonetai, and 1 hippeis, is more than enough to represent the entire quickly armed population... they won't have time to get fancy tactics I think, and they just given anything they have and the government have at that time...

On a lighter note:

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

In times of war and especially emergencies, it is customary for cities under siege or threat to mobilise everyone and their dogs, German Volkssturm for example. This is missing in RTW and MTW, sadly.

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don't think that wardogs are exist in EB II.... but Dunlending wolfhounds are quite cost effective and really awesome unit...

Ha ha ha ha

I never played the Tolkien Mod, being a Tolkien Fundamentalist I was bound to not be pleased by it.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

Ha ha ha ha

I never played the Tolkien Mod, being a Tolkien Fundamentalist I was bound to not be pleased by it.

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Look it leads to an alternate reality, and the wargs are more filmic than loric, but its a beautiful looking thing, that TATW.

Of course I play EB more than TATW, but there's a certain joy in forming Elven spearmen into line, and raining arrows onto the hide of a troll.

Their captial defense script works OK, but the emergency army is raised only once and persists. I guess what I want is a militia that rallies when an enemy approaches or beseiges, and then goes back about its business once the threat fades.

Also it has the Balrog. Sadly they can't do a 'flame on' effect :(

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

Ha ha ha ha

I never played the Tolkien Mod, being a Tolkien Fundamentalist I was bound to not be pleased by it.

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I think the Dunlending War Hounds are actually from FATW, a lore-accurate RTW-BI mod (they are so lore they don't even have crossbows).

I bet you I could find lots of inaccuracies in it. In fact I fear the Wolfhounds is an invention, but would have to look in my HoME books to check, I also seem to recall Dunland being taken over by Rohan in Fourth Age according to UT or HoME.

However, I like the militia, the question is whether we would want to see it implemented? It seems so.
Can it be done? It seems it can (somebody else has).

Question now is how to convince the Team that it is a good idea to add this to their workload? ...

Just as said before:
There is a problem with deleting the troops afterwards. So the only options are having the script spawn men infinitly if a town withstands all atacks or to make the garrison script only work one time (I think its in Third age).

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Originally Posted by bobbin

The script can delete units of a certain name or those that share a certain attribute, this applies factionwide though so is not as useful as it sounds.

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While I personally don't really support the idea of spawning units during sieges, it seems feasable that one way it could be done (without having the troops hang around forever) is to have certain units which are unrecruitable and exist solely for the purpose of city defense. So the script would be designed such that these particular units spawn when a city is besieged, and then are automatically disbanded after the siege has ceased. I haven't done any scripting myself, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were issues preventing such simple implimentation. I suppose there's a max number of units allowed in the game as well, and EB2 may already be at that limit, so it may not be possible for that reason. In any event, since the disbanding is faction-wide, it would be best if only each faction's capital spawned defenders.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

I think the Dunlending War Hounds are actually from FATW, a lore-accurate RTW-BI mod (they are so lore they don't even have crossbows).

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Nah.... there are submods in FATW that includes Uruk Crossbows and dwarves recruitable by Rohirrim.... and for more statisfication with Roman killing amusment, even the Julii has been teleported to middle earth... so they could be smashed flat with my Olog Hai... :laugh:

On the militia garrison script, if you think a special unit must be made for militia garrison script, that unit WILL take one unit slot... maybe all we can hope is the script will spawn only apeleutheroi?

Eh, shiny PJ interpretation is shiny. Anyway, back to EB?

I wonder why apeleuthoroi are such a bad idea? If they were made slightly stronger (...or not?) but just leave them around afterwards. You don't need a script to remove them. Human players can leave them there and pay the upkeep cost if they want, or disband them. The downside would be that towns would grow too quickly unless you were careful to disband them outside. I would imagine the AI would leave them there forever and would then go bankrupt. But surely the money script solves that problem already?

i think we can made the script spawn apeleutheroi when under siege, and disband them immediately afterwards, so no gold chevroned apeleutheroi anywhere, unlike in EB 1... :grin:

Apeleutheroi weren't added for their fighting/garrison role: they are there to have a universally-recruitable unit, which prevents a one type of city revolt CTD. If this CTD is not present in M2:TW Kingdoms, the apeleutheroi will go as well. If a garrison script is added to EB2, it will spawn proper garrison units.