Two suggestions concerning combat

1st, shooting with a bow is a much more strength-requiring and tiring job in real life than in game. For example, I remember reading in The Cambridge History of the Greek and Roman Warfare that the Seleucids chose the strongest of their recruits to be trained as archers, even so, after merely shooting about 10 arrows continually they would get fairly tired and their accuracy and range noticeably reduced. So I figure that an archer unit should become "exhausted" if they shoot all their about 30 arrows incessantly and their last 10 arrows should barely be able to hit anything except maybe an elephant sitting just ahead of them.:elephant:

2nd, many historians and military manual writers living in Roman era emphasized that the proper use of the gladius should be stabbing, not hacking and slashing. Dionysius of Halicarnassus who lived during the reign of Augustus called the latter the fighting style of the ill-trained barbarians. So I believe if we could see the legionaries use their gladius for swift stabs behind the protection of their huge scutum, it would be much more historical than seeing them raise their gladius high in the air at the risk of exposing their hole body, but I'm not sure if the battle animation of a certain unit could be modded.

I have not played RTW for half a year and currently don't have those book I recited at hand, so excuse me if my memory fails me.

And last, Hooray for all your great works and I can't ( but definitely will ) wait to play the most wonderful EB II!

Weren't the legionary animations in EB 1.2 already modified? They would stab whilst hiding behind their scutums... :thinking:

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Weren't the legionary animations in EB 1.2 already modified? They would stab whilst hiding behind their scutums... :thinking:

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That's good, then forget the 2nd suggestion.
As I said, it's been a while since I last played EB so I might make some mistakes...:embarassed:

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Originally Posted by Julianus

1st, shooting with a bow is a much more strength-requiring and tiring job in real life than in game. For example, I remember reading in The Cambridge History of the Greek and Roman Warfare that the Seleucids chose the strongest of their recruits to be trained as archers, even so, after merely shooting about 10 arrows continually they would get fairly tired and their accuracy and range noticeably reduced. So I figure that an archer unit should become "exhausted" if they shoot all their about 30 arrows incessantly and their last 10 arrows should barely be able to hit anything except maybe an elephant sitting just ahead of them.:elephant:

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There might be something on that but don't forget that those were romans (b..). Most professional archers of the tiem were recruited from Hunters (nomads) who technically used a bow all there life. And yes being an archer is tiring, but in my experince most people who really use bows alot don't tire that quickly. Atleast thats my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Weren't the legionary animations in EB 1.2 already modified? They would stab whilst hiding behind their scutums... :thinking:

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I think that was done .. its in this short movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dDVy8eagJM

On the other hand Polybius (I think it is) tells how the Macedonian Phalanks advancing to engage the Romans is unnerved by the sight of dead countrymen from a skirmish before and hos their limbs were hacked from their bodies, etc. That might of course be post-morten mutilation for that exact reason, but my experience tells me that though the Gladius Hispanensis (which I have heard say was a large part of the reason that Scipio Africanus was so successful) is a fine weapon for stabbing; getting in close, locking the enemy's shield with their own and stabbing them in the belly, it is not bad for cutting either.

As for archery the almost mythical English longbows with their tremendous draw weight resulted in deformation of the skeleton of the trained archers (that is not a myth). These would carry no more than 72 arrows (but could be resupplied during the battle) and not shoot at the maximun rate except in the opening volleys probably. Drawing these staves strained the fingers drawing the string tremendously as well as exhausts the muscles we see enlarged by their training.

Now, I suspect that Welsh-English archers are a one-of-a-kind, to my knowledge there has been no skeletons found elsewhere with the deformations we see in them, so we might infer that other archers trained less and/or had bows with lighter draw weight. But if we go by the famous yeomanry of England, even they would tire and not fire at maximum rate of fire (10- 12 arrows/minute), but rather slightly slower (6/minute). So perchance archers should tire faster when shooting max RoF, or more RoF be available (but the RoF is probably hardcoded). Still makes the poor sods attacking at Agincourt and Crecy face 43.000 arrows/minute, even in the impenetrable proof-of-plate that cannot have been fun.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

On the other hand Polybius (I think it is) tells how the Macedonian Phalanks advancing to engage the Romans is unnerved by the sight of dead countrymen from a skirmish before and hos their limbs were hacked from their bodies, etc. That might of course be post-morten mutilation for that exact reason, but my experience tells me that though the Gladius Hispanensis (which I have heard say was a large part of the reason that Scipio Africanus was so successful) is a fine weapon for stabbing; getting in close, locking the enemy's shield with their own and stabbing them in the belly, it is not bad for cutting either.

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Probably also because limbs are skinny and difficult to stab, and chopping one in two probably saved a good deal of effort.

Why not simply have both animations?

My apologize pals. It seems that my memory is more unreliable than I believed...
The original text in The History of Greek and Roman Warfare is "...modern archers lose accuracy and power after ten MAXIMUM pulls. In some armies the strongest recruits were selected to learn to shoot the bow."
I guess 10 maximum pulls with a powerful bow should be rather tiring, but can RTW engine distinguish a maximum pull from a half-way pull?

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Originally Posted by Julianus

My apologize pals. It seems that my memory is more unreliable than I believed...
The original text in The History of Greek and Roman Warfare is "...modern archers lose accuracy and power after ten MAXIMUM pulls. In some armies the strongest recruits were selected to learn to shoot the bow."
I guess 10 maximum pulls with a powerful bow should be rather tiring, but can RTW engine distinguish a maximum pull from a half-way pull?

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Hehe, wake up and smell the coffee, brotha. RTW? EB2 is for M2TW, eh? :smile:

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Hehe, wake up and smell the coffee, brotha. RTW? EB2 is for M2TW, eh? :smile:

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which has got a very similar engine...
i do not think that anything like archers firing only half range fire faster than ones firing at maximum range, or exhausting slower, or anything like that can be modded into the engine.

probably the easiest way to implement this would be to make fireing with a bow as tireing as fighting in melee. if that is not possible all other solutions are unlikely to work aswell.

This is already implemented in M2 TW. Archers, even those with good stamina, are usually tired or exhausted after firing off the majority of their arrows.

Oh, have to play more M2TW ^^ thank you

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

Oh, have to play more M2TW ^^ thank you

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Eh, it's not really a great game. That's going to change, though, when EB2 comes out. :smile:

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Eh, it's not really a great game. That's going to change, though, when EB2 comes out. :smile:

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Yeah, going on England with vanilla means that you will eventually built most of your army with yeomen, with french you'll end up recruiting french mounted archers everywhere (just like mongols), and with Germans, it was all Zewihanders and Imperial Knights..... It was still a great game though, if you install stainles steel, deus lo vult, or Broken Crescent

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Originally Posted by Julianus

1st, shooting with a bow is a much more strength-requiring and tiring job in real life than in game. For example, I remember reading in The Cambridge History of the Greek and Roman Warfare that the Seleucids chose the strongest of their recruits to be trained as archers, even so, after merely shooting about 10 arrows continually they would get fairly tired and their accuracy and range noticeably reduced. So I figure that an archer unit should become "exhausted" if they shoot all their about 30 arrows incessantly and their last 10 arrows should barely be able to hit anything except maybe an elephant sitting just ahead of them.:elephant:

2nd, many historians and military manual writers living in Roman era emphasized that the proper use of the gladius should be stabbing, not hacking and slashing. Dionysius of Halicarnassus who lived during the reign of Augustus called the latter the fighting style of the ill-trained barbarians. So I believe if we could see the legionaries use their gladius for swift stabs behind the protection of their huge scutum, it would be much more historical than seeing them raise their gladius high in the air at the risk of exposing their hole body, but I'm not sure if the battle animation of a certain unit could be modded.

I have not played RTW for half a year and currently don't have those book I recited at hand, so excuse me if my memory fails me.

And last, Hooray for all your great works and I can't ( but definitely will ) wait to play the most wonderful EB II!

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My friend is an archer. He has shot for hours, every week, and funny enough he's barely broken a sweat. The guy's not the most extreme, but he's got stamina. If you gave him a sword and shield, told him to fight, then maybe he would tire!
I wish they could hack, slash, and stab, because these were all done. Why would you bother making the weapon double edged? Hmm, let me think...

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Originally Posted by Julianus

1st, shooting with a bow is a much more strength-requiring and tiring job in real life than in game. For example, I remember reading in The Cambridge History of the Greek and Roman Warfare that the Seleucids chose the strongest of their recruits to be trained as archers, even so, after merely shooting about 10 arrows continually they would get fairly tired and their accuracy and range noticeably reduced. So I figure that an archer unit should become "exhausted" if they shoot all their about 30 arrows incessantly and their last 10 arrows should barely be able to hit anything except maybe an elephant sitting just ahead of them.:elephant:

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In my experience shooting a bow isn't too tiring, but of course my bow has a draw weight of 55 lbs., which is a pretty standard weight for a hunting bow. Shooting a 90 lb. war bow is probably a different story, but then the archer shooting such a bow would probably have practiced with it a lot so he would be conditioned to using it. However, archery can be a little painful. Some archers say that if you shoot without finger tabs or gloves you will get nerve damage in the tips of your fingers. When I first got my longbow, I got blood blisters on the tips of my fingers and a big bruise on my wrist from the string slapping my arm. Again these problems can be fixed through conditioning or the right equipment but you would still get a little sore from prolonged shooting. So you have a point, but I think fatigue would not have as profound an effect on an archers ability to shoot as you suggest.

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Originally Posted by Julianus

My apologize pals. It seems that my memory is more unreliable than I believed...
The original text in The History of Greek and Roman Warfare is "...modern archers lose accuracy and power after ten MAXIMUM pulls. In some armies the strongest recruits were selected to learn to shoot the bow."
I guess 10 maximum pulls with a powerful bow should be rather tiring, but can RTW engine distinguish a maximum pull from a half-way pull?

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I could be wrong but I don't think there is such thing as a half-way pull. There are two problems with this that I can think of:

1. For good accuracy when shooting a bow you want to draw it to the same place every time you shoot. This is called your "anchor point". If you shot only drawing the bow half way, you would not be able to draw the bow to your body, so it would be almost impossible to establish an anchor point. So basically someone shooting drawing the bow half way would have almost no accuracy whatsoever.

2. Bows store energy on a curve. An average bow tillered to have a draw weight of 60 lbs. at 30 in. only has a draw weight of 25 lbs. at mid-draw. A bow that was only drawn half way would not have enough power or range to inflict significant damage to the enemy. Sure you could give some un-armored guy five feet in front of you a pretty nasty stab wound but if that guy just happens to be a gaesatae you're pretty much screwed :smash:

1. All combat is tiring. Especially hand-to-hand combat with armor and shields. Archers did not tire more than most of the other troops on the battlefield imho, perhaps even less.

2. Could someone give the exact quote from Polybios about the mutilated Macedonians? I only know a quote from Livius/Livy about the terror the Macedonians felt at the burial of soldiers who were cut to pieces by Roman swords. But these were victims of a Roman cavalry attack, so there would be no contradiction to the "stabbing legionary".

However, I think also the legionaries sometimes used their swords in a slashing manner, after the rows were broken, in single combat and against helpless enemies for example. The findings at Maiden Castle could be mentioned (although that might have been no Roman attack).