Pontic Culture

Will the Kingdom of Pontos be using the Eastern or Eastern Greek culture map? I ask, because usually when I play in my games, once the reforms occur and the old Persian feel has bee replaced by a more Hellenic feel, I manually edit the culture to be Greek.

It is a tough question because, while the initial ruling class is Persian, the dominant culture was Pontic Greek. Moreover, the family members in the game, and indeed the historic expansion of the kingdom, would emphasize Hellenic and Thracian contacts over more eastern ones.

Ultimately, it is a tough question since Pontos was such a diverse kingdom, and therefore difficult to create accurately in the game.

Surely the player should be able to decide which culture Pontos would align to?

Good idea. That should be possible through the Lithuanian conersion script since religion will be used as culture in EBII.

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Originally Posted by machinor

That should be possible through the Lithuanian conersion script since religion will be used as culture in EBII.

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Actually, it won't. As I understand it, religion will be used to simulate the type of government the population expects. Even when using the lowest modifiers, the religion of a province shifts too quickly to be used to represent cultural changes.

well, being a Pontian myself, I couldn't resist to put the dance of the region.
Horon as Turks call it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z84gjBgVIe4

and Serra as Greeks call it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPE0...eature=related

starts slow, and goes fast...there are many types of Horon/Serra, varying from region to region.

The insturment of Pontian people are Kemençe/Lyra(Greek)-coastal and Tulum(though this is for the Laz)-mountains

How Persian was this Pontic Kingdom anyways?
Its inhabitants were Greeks and some Anatolian peoples.

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Originally Posted by Dogukan

How Persian was this Pontic Kingdom anyways?
Its inhabitants were Greeks and some Anatolian peoples.

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The upper/ruling nobility were Persian, they were a leftover from the Achaemenid days. So, it does make sense for the nobility to speak Farsi as they do in game, but the average inhabitants would not have been Persian. Of course, they were ruled by the Achaemenid Empire for over one hundred years, so perhaps they had experienced some degree of Persian cultural influence? I'm unsure on this though, as I recall that the Achaemenid Empire was quite tolerant of foreign cultures and religions, and as such probably didn't try to impose their culture on others very much.

Dynasty were of Persian origins. Greeks were found in the coastal plains and native Anatolians in the interior "behind" the mountains separating the coastlands from the Anatolian inlands. According to Strabo (who was from Pontos region) the local population took their most sacred vows at a temple dedicated to three Persian deities, that I can't remember here and now.
While Greek was the language at courts, nobility and military, Persian was known most likely as well, especially as the Pontic dynasts never hid the fact they were of Persian origins. The Pontic Kings always presented themselves as both Greeks & Persians and Mithridates VI Eupator claimed descent from both Darius and Alexander the Great.

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Originally Posted by machinor

...should be possible through the Lithuanian conersion script since religion will be used as culture in EBII.

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That is huge news. I am a great fan of using this feature to represent the fall of the Republic.

Dunno about the shift in Pontic culture, but they seem to have been a monarchy for the duration of ther EB2 period.

IIRC Epiros became a republic after the monarchy failed, and they were wiped out within a few decades of that, so there's at least two candidates for a "political culture conversion" event.

An *alt-history case could be made for a Barcid takeover of Carthage making them into a Monarchy too: the Punic senate was allegedly deeply suspicious of Hannibal's aspirations. Might be suitable as a "yes/no" option if a Punic general (eg Hannibal) acquires sufficient prestige (eg conquers Roma or eliminates SPQR).

Any other politcal culture shifts in the EB period? I suppose there were political changes in the Celtic and Germanic world, from tribal/kinship groups to some more centralised militarised organisation, but I don't know a great deal about it or how it might mesh with the political system in EB2.

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Originally Posted by Dogukan

How Persian was this Pontic Kingdom anyways?
Its inhabitants were Greeks and some Anatolian peoples.

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The names of all the rulers are Persian dressed up as Greek; Ariobarzanes (Aryobŗdāna), Mithridates (Miθradata), Pharnaces (Parnaka)

Re the OP: Pontos in EB2, as in EB1, is part of the Eastern 'culture' insofar as GUI, family portraits go.

Pontics are not totally Hellenic or Persian but mix of them but most of Pontics have Persian origin

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Originally Posted by Dogukan

well, being a Pontian myself

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You are not Pontic, if you were Pontic you would know our language, yes Pontic language is Greek but we have a lot of Persian word so how can you say Pontians are not Persian?

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Originally Posted by Pontic Knight

You are not Pontic, if you were Pontic you would know our language, yes Pontic language is Greek but we have a lot of Persian word so how can you say Pontians are not Persian?

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As a Laz, he's by definition a modern Pontian. Of course he doesn't speak the ancient language, seeing as most local Anatolian cultures were destroyed by a hundred years of Turkification, enforced by rabid Nationalists.

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Originally Posted by Pontic Knight

Pontics are not totally Hellenic or Persian but mix of them but most of Pontics have Persian origin

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That seems unlikely since the Persians were a minority in their own empire, and their homeland was quite a bit away from Pontus. What evidence do you have for a mass migration?

Welcome to the .Org and to EB, BTW ~:wave: .

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Originally Posted by Ludens

That seems unlikely since the Persians were a minority in their own empire, and their homeland was quite a bit away from Pontus. What evidence do you have for a mass migration?

Welcome to the .Org and to EB, BTW ~:wave: .

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Pontus at this time would be mostly indigenous Anatolian. In central Anatolia that would mean the remnants of the Phrygians/Moschoi, with Lydians to the west, and Lycians and Carians in the south. The Lydians and Carians were very open to Hellenization, the Lycians not so much. They had always been rebels, even against the Hittites. The Persians would indeed be the ruling class, with the Greeks or at least Greek speakers dominating the trades, and the voiceless masses and local religious cults would be any one of the indigenous groups mentioned above. Military commands, I would imagine, would be in Greek for the infantry due to the prevalence of Ionian mercenaries dating back to the Persian Empire. Perhaps the cavalry would be commanded in Persian.

If it were possible, the building style and infantry commands should be Hellenistic, but the cavalry unit sounds and family names would be Persian.

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Originally Posted by Tudhaliya

Pontus at this time would be mostly indigenous Anatolian. In central Anatolia that would mean the remnants of the Phrygians/Moschoi, with Lydians to the west, and Lycians and Carians in the south. The Lydians and Carians were very open to Hellenization, the Lycians not so much. They had always been rebels, even against the Hittites. The Persians would indeed be the ruling class, with the Greeks or at least Greek speakers dominating the trades, and the voiceless masses and local religious cults would be any one of the indigenous groups mentioned above. Military commands, I would imagine, would be in Greek for the infantry due to the prevalence of Ionian mercenaries dating back to the Persian Empire. Perhaps the cavalry would be commanded in Persian.

If it were possible, the building style and infantry commands should be Hellenistic, but the cavalry unit sounds and family names would be Persian.

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sounds reasonable if you ask me
and could represent the mixed culture quite well

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Originally Posted by athanaric

As a Laz, he's by definition a modern Pontian. Of course he doesn't speak the ancient language, seeing as most local Anatolian cultures were destroyed by a hundred years of Turkification, enforced by rabid Nationalists.

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no, laz people are not Pontic they are laz, they speak their own language they are totally diffirent than Pontic people

our language is mix of Persian, Turkish and Greek (very few native greek speakers live in Pontus and others speak Turkish(Turkophone Greek) but they have a lot of Persian word)

Ugh, this is like the Greek crap all over again.

Look, I don't want to see arguments over who is who or what is what and most don't either. This could very quickly become ugly and if I had moderator powers, I would lock this thread. As such, I'm requesting a lock before this erupts into something very ugly. Conversations challenging board member's cultural and ethnic background should be done elsewhere.

If the discussion wants to continue on how the EB team may present Pontos in the game, open another thread.

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Originally Posted by abou

Look, I don't want to see arguments over who is who or what is what and most don't either. This could very quickly become ugly and if I had moderator powers, I would lock this thread. As such, I'm requesting a lock before this erupts into something very ugly. Conversations challenging board member's cultural and ethnic background should be done elsewhere.

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As you wish.

Thread closed.