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Its first time in polish history when so many important for country people dies same time.
I wonder how Poland overcome this problem. Don't expect big complication (constitution is prepared
for such situations) but some problems can occur.
This seems to be best place for notification of this fact because we are talking about history here.
And now history is being written on our eyes.
I say there will be very few meaningful consequences, apart from the possible passing of a law banning such a great number of Poland's political and military leaders from traveling in the same conveyance again. Poland's democratic system is strong and vibrant, and this will not change that.
We have such a protocol in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
A catastrophe for Poland, and my condolances to all.
A tragic event which Poland will nevertheless overcome with some ease, continuing its rapid development. Modern Poland is sturdy at its core, economically, politcally. The institutions are stable, the persons heading them can be replaced, despite the obvious loss.
[moderator]
As a point of order:
The disaster is a historical event, but not history. I'd rather the political angle be discussed in the designated Backroom thread. Do you have Backroom access, Krook?
I'll leave the thread open for now, considering the tragic occassion, to allow people to have their say. If it gets too political, I'll close it. If it gets disrespecful, I have a fine opportunity to learn how that infraction system works.
[/moderator]
Actually this is historical even.
Political too, but mostly historical in my opinion.
Do share with us some of your thoughts. I asked this thread not turn too political, but I noted that you do not access the Backroom. It would be a shame if that means we remain deprived of your thoughts about this tragic event.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
Do you think Kaczynski and his wife should be buried in the Wawel, or rather not?
At the beginning I have to tell that I voted Kaczynski during election at 2005. Later I regret that. His first 2 years were terrible. Not only because of his fault, but officers of his bureau were terrible. So many people (especially into western europe) started thinking that he is fascist or something.
But later much changed. He reorganised his office, ordered some of his advisors to think instead of tell. And result were visible. For last year I was pround I voted him.
Kaczynski as a person always had a vision of Poland. Very similar to Pilsudski's vision. Strong state which cares about its citizens - especially the ones who fight for Poland. Before he was president of Warsaw for 10 years government could not find a place for Museum of Warsaw Uprising 1944. After he won election suddenly all the problems dissapeared. Now Museum is one of the most interesting in Poland.
We have to remember that many of newspapers hated him. Mostly because he was fighting corruption. Especially very strong newspaper "Wyborcza" all the time attacked him. No one really knows why.Maybe because he never agreed on situation when former agents of communist
special services were trying to rule our county. Maybe becuase he was always for very strong punishments for pedofiles,
drug dealers and criminals with white collars. I don't know. Actually it was Wyborcza who started all this dispute \concerning Wawel as a tomb of president. Its very very strange that great newspaper gives 3 pages for news about small demonstration (200 men).
Most Poles accept Wawel. I think that its very good place for tomb of president whom died serving his country.
In the end there is something else that Wyborcza seems to forgot (or not want to remember). Much more people know what was Katyn warcrime.
In my opinion he is worth enough to have tomb at Wawel. And trust me - 95 % Poles too. Maybe into western media it looks other but
sadly Wyborcza newspaper is really very strong.
condolences for the loss.
but I think your people are more than able to cope and get a new president elected in his place (or whatever your procedure is). perhaps the new one will be as good as your late president in his last year?
at least your prepared by constitution.
Of course. There are 2 possible dates
13.06.2010 or 20.06.2010
Perhaps it is too early for historical consequences, perhaps even too early for political consequences as well.
Anyway I will post my observations, also about the president himself.
Unfortunatelly very little positive. Frankly I'd place him next to the worst heads of states in history of Poland. Why - I will explain later.
umm, I have a Question:
umm, I never heard of Lech Walesa anymore, is he dead too :huh:
Nah, 'es jus' pinin'.
He is definitely alive
At last.
Quote:
Russia releases secret papers on Katyn massacre signed by Stalin
Top-secret documents detailing the Soviet leadership’s decision to murder 22,000 Polish officers at Katyn during the Second World War were released to the Russian public yesterday on the orders of President Medvedev.
In an unprecedented step, the Russian State Archive published official papers showing that Joseph Stalin approved the massacre proposed by his secret police henchman Lavrenti Beria. Other prominent members of the Soviet Politburo also signed off on the slaughter.
Mr Medvedev, on a state visit to Denmark, said that he had ordered the release of the material because “we owe it to the world”.
He told reporters: “We must learn the lesson of history. Let people see it, let them know who made the decision to kill the Polish officers. It’s all there in the documents. All signatures are there, all the faces are known.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7110287.ece
That is definetely something positive, only fossils from the Communist Party Of Russia still deny it.
It seems that Kremlin decided to target stalinism while at the same time sex tapes are targeting certain anti-Kremlin characters, Putin pushes for more power for secret services etc.
About Kaczyński - necrocampaign of his brother was launched. It will be extremely brutal - already public tv (in hands of Law and Justice and Democratic Left Alliance) broadcasted a manipulative, smearing move where 'ordinary people' are accusing the government, Russia, Tusk, 'evil media' for president's death.
'Ordinary people' who happen to include a couple of actors, at least one politician etc who played 'ordinary people' from the street 'accidently' asked to give their opinion, broadcasted in prime time for two hours - Cugier Kotka 2?
I suppose if you have a coffin you can always try to use it...
disgusting.
Cugier Kotka 2 i.e. in June last year an actress who appeared in a campaign spot from the Law and Justice giving 'a warning' to the government (and year earlier was playing a nurse in a spot for Civic Platform) accused Civic Platform's supporters of an assault where she was suposed to suffer serious injuries. It was reported by 'Rzeczpospolita' one of propaganda tubes of Law and Justice and continued by several other 'friiendly sources'.
During later days it was known that the entire 'beating' never happened and the woman was lying since she wasn't able to describe the attackers, changed her opinion several times and appeared to know Jacek Kurski (chief propagandist of Law and Justice).
Apperently something didn't work because 'the scandal' was supposed to happen just before the elections to the Europarliament, but for reasons unknown was delayed by a couple of days.
First leaks from the report about the disater appeared - soon Hell will be unleashed...
It looks like the chancellary invited commanders of the armed forces separately, in letters addressed to them in person and they've seen each other only on the board of the plane. The chancellary also delayed the take off so there was little or no margin for error when over Smolensk, no time to land elsewhere at all or the entire celebrations would be derailed.
I am certain more will be revealed in coming weeks especially when Law and Justice decided to use even the daughter of the deceased president in election campaign.
Gah Cegorach.
You see enemy everywhere. Death of Kaczynski is one thing and polish election are other.
Yeah right.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
Jarosław Kaczyński declared he wants to 'continue the mission' of his deceased brother in the statement announcing he will attempt to be the next president.
What part of 'continuing the mission' of Lech Kaczyński does not refer to the tragic death?
What are the reasons why Jarosław Kaczyński was apponted (or rather - appointed himself) as the cadidate in those elections? His (un)popularity? His ((lack of)charm? Or his (un)balanced views? His (in)ability and (un)willingness to travel abroad? His (non existent) personal life?
For a president for God's sake - it is all about moderate views and representing the country abroad - the man is like everything you need from a person who shouldn't be the president.
Face it - sympathy vote is ALL they can get and they know it. That is why Jarosław is kept away from the media so that he won't say something stupid, doesn't offend someone or preach one of his paranoid theories about the state and politics.
Otherwise his chances drop to zero because only hard-core fans of Law and Justice would support this man.
Cegorach I remind you that he (Jaroslaw) is exactly the same citizen like you or me.
He has same right to be elected as every Pole who finished 35th year of live.
And you have to remember that into Law and Justice he was closest partner of
Lech Kaczynki (which actually is obvious :) ). So it was clear that he will be starting from this party.
You can vote or not for Jaroslaw but you can't ban him from election.
Few years ago there were some billboards with dog eating duck. Why you did not protested then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
And I have the right to feel outrage when 'coffin' tactics are used.Quote:
You can vote or not for Jaroslaw but you can't ban him from election.
??Quote:
Few years ago there were some billboards with dog eating duck. Why you did not protested
then.
What dog? What duck? What argument it is at all? First time I hear about it, actually.
Besides what does it have to do with the accident in Smolensk?
Honestly are you comparing dog eating duck to this?
Last time I've checked deceased people were not tools to be used in elections.
But this political camp has nothing else at their diposal, so they will exploit the fact that dead people are rarely criticised just after their funerals.
You are trying to argue everywhere when I disagree with you.
As for now I don't see anything stronger than during normal election (however it's a fact that I hardly ever watch tv).
Let's wait till election and then we will see. And after Cugier Kotka I think Law and Justice will think twice before tricks like that.
And yes I'm comparing dog eating duck to situation nowadays. Into that billboards dog was eating duck (to english speaking person
Kaczynski comes from Kaczka - duck) and there were a comment - something like "hunt ducks". It was really disgusting.
Election finished 20 minutes ago.
Looks like Cegorach made wrong predictions.
Campaign wasn't perfectly clear but was really good.
Calm and practically without false accusations and similar mess.
Compeletely different level than earlier elections.
Maybe this is most important result of Kaczynski's death.