So, I am the only one thinking things are going downhill in Europe?

I'm opening this topic not because I've read some article, or seen something on TV, but as a result of some thoughts I've had lately, related to personal experiences. If you can't be bothered learning more about my life, just skip to the end part I guess. And sorry for the racist tone to my topic, if it does not respect the rules of the org, feel free to delete it.

I just had a talk with my little bro, about what he does in high school, his friends and what not. At first, we were simply discussing how his high-school has changed since I've been there, how are some profs doing, etc.. But quickly, the topic moved onto racial (or ethnical, as us french don't like the idea of race) tensions in said high-school. And it kind of shocked me to learn that most of my bro's friends are slowly becoming racists. They consider most arabs to be scums, thieves and generally, big vulgarisms. And so does my bro.

Now, I don't know how things were when you were 14-18 (my bro is 18), but back when I was young, racism was a big taboo among me and my friends. An oftenly-used insult was "facho" (a slang word for fascist). Sure, we all had our occasional problems/fights with some arab scum, but that was about it. We considered it was part of life and mostly got over it. When Le Pen (far right leader) made it to the second turn of the Presidential election, we all took the street, and shown our support to the black and brown population. My family encouraged me to do so. And proud we were, manifesting in support of freedom, tolerance and whatever. I remember some old arab shopkeeper who offered us free drinks during the protest. Poor guy was almost crying, and I was moved by him.

Nowadays, (almost ten years later) when I meet the same old friends, (some of them are still leftist hippies by all standards) racist jokes fly around, and even though we generally avoid the topic, we know we don't really hold arabs in our hearths.
Nowadays, my mum (socialist) who back then praised me when I protested against Le Pen call arabs with bad names and hate them with a passion.
Nowadays, my dad, who'd like to be a respectable, politically correct UMP-voter (right) often makes racist jokes too, and keep repeating "things are going to end badly".

We are all ashamed about it, but we all are racist of some sort. Whenever I get called names, whenever some guy tries to piss me off or to fight with me, sad to say, it's an arab. Whenever I see some macho-man scumbag calling girls 'sluts' in the street, it's an arab. Whenever I see a mean scum, it's an arab. And whenever I see an arab who doesn't look like and behave like a scum of earth or a religious nutjob, saddly, my first thought is "Wow, an arab who looks like you can have a civilized talk with him, crazy!".
I keep telling to myself "those are a minority, you can't blame all of them for the behavior of these ***holes". But I know it's pretty much useless. I don't have faith anymore.

I still get mad with some openly racist people I know (grandparents or what not), telling them the very same argument, but I don't believe it anymore. If I'd see that old arab shopkeeper again, I'd probably think "Meh, too bad for him, but he should have taught his kids to behave". I don't think I have an irrational hatred for colored people, as my two best girl-friends are respectively from Tahiti and Tunisia, but still.

It's quite telling that my Canadian girlfriend, who has lived in France for almost three months, thinks most arab youth in France are horrid scums (note that during these three months she had her share of issues with them). When she makes a comment about it, I don't know whether I should agree with her or stay politically correct and temper her thoughts with the same old "they're not all like this" argument. And you can't really accuse her of being a white racist imperialist scumbag either, as she's 3/4 native and kind of brown too.

And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.

My fear is that this rise of racism, which seems to not be restricted to France (one just has to see what's going on in Italy, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland or Germany) is the result of a mix of state propaganda and societal trend caused by economic and political uncertainties. What if things weren't really worse now than they used to be in the past? What if my shameful feelings aren't caused by rational thinking, but by some insidious brainwashing? What if I'm only not reminding the cases where a white scum pissed me or someone else off? I genuinely can't think of such an event happening in the last five years, but heh.

As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist":dizzy2:. Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.:shame:

Wahh Wahh The brown people are here and they are scary wahh wahh

If they are scum let them be scum and if they impede your daily life pop them in the nose.

Well, I don't agree. Infact, it would be hard for me to agree.

I am from a basically "all-white" part of England. So the vast majority of people I know are indeed "white". However, all the 'foriengers' including arab-looking people, are all either Health Professionals (Doctors, Nurses, etc) which I know from work, or University Students which I know from University.

The thing is, they are basically all very nice people. I get on great with them with no issues at all. All the colours of the rainbow, I know people from Singapore, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Caribean, America, South America, China, Europe, etc etc.

On the otherhand, there are the "white-English" I know... loud bad mouthed drunks, fighting eachother outside of night clubs, sexual harrasment akin to what you said being done, not all of them are chavs either, as those are generally around the council states, the average one is pretty much like that. The women have people like "Jordan" as their idol, who pretty much are just like what you said that arab man says. It is a disgusting horrid pit of moral perversion. Obviously, not everyone like this, as you say yourself, but I would argue the ones not like that are a minority.

So on one-hand, there is this nice well-mannered Arabian health professional/student (male or female) compared to the average "white-English" duct-tape dressed female who's version of manners is burping after taking a swig of laeger or male who thinks chat-up lines akin to "do you have a mirror in your [female undergarments]? I can see myself in there" is civilised behaviour.

So I don't think it is anything to do with genes or race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meneldil

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm opening this topic not because I've read some article, or seen something on TV, but as a result of some thoughts I've had lately, related to personal experiences. If you can't be bothered learning more about my life, just skip to the end part I guess. And sorry for the racist tone to my topic, if it does not respect the rules of the org, feel free to delete it.

I just had a talk with my little bro, about what he does in high school, his friends and what not. At first, we were simply discussing how his high-school has changed since I've been there, how are some profs doing, etc.. But quickly, the topic moved onto racial (or ethnical, as us french don't like the idea of race) tensions in said high-school. And it kind of shocked me to learn that most of my bro's friends are slowly becoming racists. They consider most arabs to be scums, thieves and generally, big twats. And so does my bro.

Now, I don't know how things were when you were 14-18 (my bro is 18), but back when I was young, racism was a big taboo among me and my friends. An oftenly-used insult was "facho" (a slang word for fascist). Sure, we all had our occasional problems/fights with some arab scum, but that was about it. We considered it was part of life and mostly got over it. When Le Pen (far right leader) made it to the second turn of the Presidential election, we all took the street, and shown our support to the black and brown population. My family encouraged me to do so. And proud we were, manifesting in support of freedom, tolerance and whatever. I remember some old arab shopkeeper who offered us free drinks during the protest. Poor guy was almost crying, and I was moved by him.

Nowadays, (almost ten years later) when I meet the same old friends, (some of them are still leftist hippies by all standards) racist jokes fly around, and even though we generally avoid the topic, we know we don't really hold arabs in our hearths.
Nowadays, my mum (socialist) who back then praised me when I protested against Le Pen call arabs with bad names and hate them with a passion.
Nowadays, my dad, who'd like to be a respectable, politically correct UMP-voter (right) often makes racist jokes too, and keep repeating "things are going to end badly".

We are all ashamed about it, but we all are racist of some sort. Whenever I get called names, whenever some guy tries to piss me off or to fight with me, sad to say, it's an arab. Whenever I see some macho-man scumbag calling girls 'sluts' in the street, it's an arab. Whenever I see a mean scum, it's an arab. And whenever I see an arab who doesn't look like and behave like a scum of earth or a religious nutjob, saddly, my first thought is "Wow, an arab who looks like you can have a civilized talk with him, crazy!".
I keep telling to myself "those are a minority, you can't blame all of them for the behavior of these ***holes". But I know it's pretty much useless. I don't have faith anymore.

I still get mad with some openly racist people I know (grandparents or what not), telling them the very same argument, but I don't believe it anymore. If I'd see that old arab shopkeeper again, I'd probably think "Meh, too bad for him, but he should have taught his kids to behave". I don't think I have an irrational hatred for colored people, as my two best girl-friends are respectively from Tahiti and Tunisia, but still.

It's quite telling that my Canadian girlfriend, who has lived in France for almost three months, thinks most arab youth in France are horrid scums (note that during these three months she had her share of issues with them). When she makes a comment about it, I don't know whether I should agree with her or stay politically correct and temper her thoughts with the same old "they're not all like this" argument. And you can't really accuse her of being a white racist imperialist scumbag either, as she's 3/4 native and kind of brown too.

And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.

My fear is that this rise of racism, which seems to not be restricted to France (one just has to see what's going on in Italy, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland or Germany) is the result of a mix of state propaganda and societal trend caused by economic and political uncertainties. What if things weren't really worse now than they used to be in the past? What if my shameful feelings aren't caused by rational thinking, but by some insidious brainwashing? What if I'm only not reminding the cases where a white scum pissed me or someone else off? I genuinely can't think of such an event happening in the last five years, but heh.

As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist":dizzy2:. Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.:shame:

---

It's not really racism until you tie it down to the concept of "race". As for propaganda, yeah, I think we are surrounded by it all the time, and it goes both ways. I don't know if things go downhill, but they change for sure. In Oslo, "native" pupils will soon be a minority.

Ok all kidding aside, why is this so bothersome?

People migrate and people mix it has been happening since the dawn of time. As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

Well, I don't agree. Infact, it would be hard for me to agree.

I am from a basically "all-white" part of England. So the vast majority of people I know are indeed "white". However, all the 'foriengers' including arab-looking people, are all either Health Professionals (Doctors, Nurses, etc) which I know from work, or University Students which I know from University.

The thing is, they are basically all very nice people. I get on great with them with no issues at all. All the colours of the rainbow, I know people from Singapore, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Caribean, America, South America, China, Europe, etc etc.

On the otherhand, there are the "white-English" I know... loud bad mouthed drunks, fighting eachother outside of night clubs, sexual harrasment akin to what you said being done, not all of them are chavs either, as those are generally around the council states, the average one is pretty much like that. The women have people like "Jordan" as their idol, who pretty much are just like what you said that arab man says. It is a disgusting horrid pit of moral perversion. Obviously, not everyone like this, as you say yourself, but I would argue the ones not like that are a minority.

So on one-hand, there is this nice well-mannered Arabian health professional/student (male or female) compared to the average "white-English" duct-tape dressed female who's version of manners is burping after taking a swig of laeger or male who thinks chat-up lines akin to "do you have a mirror in your [female undergarments]? I can see myself in there" is civilised behaviour.

So I don't think it is anything to do with genes or race.

---

Where abouts are you Beskar, in the North of England, I think?

In the South West the situation in much more like what Melendil describes, though not as extreme. I live (as EVERYBODY should know by now) in the Cathedral City of Exeter. This is a (relatively) wealthy and peaceful city, it is also a city housing an excellent university whose students make up around 10% of the population.

We have three social problems of varying severity:

Chavs

Arab Muslims from rich backgrounds

Fundamentalist Christians

More or less in that order. Of the three, the Christians are really only a problem for other Christians, and mostly on an individual harrassment basis. The Chavs are the cause of several rapes and violent attacks each year, mostly of 18 year old female students who walk down dark alleys because they think they are safe in the city. The Arabs are just an almighty nusience, they drink and smoke huge amounts of hash, play music at all hours and have disgusting personal habits. They also trwat white women as whores or servants.

I was unfortunate enough to have to live with one one year, after about 5 months of complaining the university kicked him out of Halls. His room had to be deep cleaned, to the tune of several hundred pounds.

This is all in a small city with a small immigrant/non-white population. In London and the South East I gather, from friends and relatives, the situation is FAR worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Ok all kidding aside, why is this so bothersome?

People migrate and people mix it has been happening since the dawn of time. As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?

---

It's an issue because the immigrants are the ones causing all the problems. When a segmant of society, most of whom have arrived in the last 50 years, is responsible for so much unrest then the natural inclination is tto want to surgically remove them. Especially in Europe, where space and resources are extremely limited.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?

---

But do they?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

It's an issue because the immigrants are the ones causing all the problems. When a segmant of society, most of whom have arrived in the last 50 years, is responsible for so much unrest then the natural inclination is tto want to surgically remove them. Especially in Europe, where space and resources are extremely limited.

---

Yall invited them in the firstplace no?

You need them don't you?

Excuse any ignorance but it seems like reactionary nativism

Quote:

---

But do they?

---

It is your job to be the vanguard and pass on the ideals. Do work

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viking

It's not really racism until you tie it down to the concept of "race".

---

Exactly. It's not racism in the OP, it's just the equivalent of disliking "chavs" or whatever they're called, in England.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Where abouts are you Beskar, in the North of England, I think?

---

That is correct. (North West)

Quote:

---

In the South West the situation in much more like what Melendil describes, though not as extreme. I live (as EVERYBODY should know by now) in the Cathedral City of Exeter. This is a (relatively) wealthy and peaceful city, it is also a city housing an excellent university whose students make up around 10% of the population.

We have three social problems of varying severity:
Chavs
Arab Muslims from rich backgrounds
Fundamentalist Christians

More or less in that order. Of the three, the Christians are really only a problem for other Christians, and mostly on an individual harrassment basis. The Chavs are the cause of several rapes and violent attacks each year, mostly of 18 year old female students who walk down dark alleys because they think they are safe in the city. The Arabs are just an almighty nusience, they drink and smoke huge amounts of hash, play music at all hours and have disgusting personal habits. They also trwat white women as whores or servants.

I was unfortunate enough to have to live with one one year, after about 5 months of complaining the university kicked him out of Halls. His room had to be deep cleaned, to the tune of several hundred pounds.

This is all in a small city with a small immigrant/non-white population. In London and the South East I gather, from friends and relatives, the situation is FAR worse.

---

The biggest issue here are the chavs. They are the cause of gang-violence, violent attacks, drunken behaviour and everything. The minorities are basically NHS employees or Students. The minorities cause no issues at all. The immigration in the area is basically polish, so a lot of ****sky's (stars represent their surnames seem to all end with 'sky'/'ski') around here, but historically, the immigration here used to come from Scotland.

Yeah, I heard from people that in Burnley and Manchester, they have some issues, but in "my part of the world" as it were, it is not the case. So it is really weird for me to even accept the racism, as I don't see it, and where I do see this alleged behaviour, it is the "whites".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You need them don't you?

---

What are they needed for exactly? :inquisitive:

Quote:

---

It is your job to be the vanguard and pass on the ideals. Do work

---

The key is that many might just have different ideals, and that they'll naturally not surrender those that easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

That is correct. (North West)

The biggest issue here are the chavs. They are the cause of gang-violence, violent attacks, drunken behaviour and everything. The minorities are basically NHS employees or Students. The minorities cause no issues at all. The immigration in the area is basically polish, so a lot of ****sky's (stars represent their surnames seem to all end with 'sky'/'ski') around here, but historically, the immigration here used to come from Scotland.

Yeah, I heard from people that in Burnley and Manchester, they have some issues, but in "my part of the world" as it were, it is not the case. So it is really weird for me to even accept the racism, as I don't see it, and where I do see this alleged behaviour, it is the "whites".

---

Yes, I suppose then that your lower class white demographic is mostly ex-industrial-without-hope. That's a problem with the North, and Thatcher's "amputation" of certain industries. Conversely, the poor in my area are general rural farmers, or ex-light industry (glove making used to be big near my home-town).

All this means we have different demographics and sub-cultures. Although, we do have those sorts of "white" chav in Plymouth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viking

What are they needed for exactly? :inquisitive:

---

J-O-B-S

At least that is the impression I have always been under

Quote:

---

The key is that many might just have different ideals, and that they'll naturally not surrender those that easily.

---

No one ever said it would be easy but it doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and send the browns back because they are incompatibile.

Assimlations has its pains but also can reap rewards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

J-O-B-S

At least that is the impression I have always been under

---

I am not under that impression, though I am ready to be enlightened. I always thought that the immigration was due to altruism, sort of.

Quote:

---

No one ever said it would be easy but it doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and send the browns back because they are incompatibile.

Assimlations has its pains but also can reap rewards

---

Remember that bigger countries got greater momentum than smaller ones, watch those percents.

Not here anyway. The J-O-B-S migrants are mainly Polish these days and only stay on temporary. They can drive back to Poland in about a day, so essentially they hire a room, stay a few months and work for a salary that's much larger they ordinarily would make, then they go back to Poland and spend the remainder there. This is even more noticeable in SE-England than it is in the Netherlands because in the Netherlands there is more of a minimum wage going on (so those jobs are as often taken up by other groups as well).

The sources of immigration for Scotland seems to be a bit different. I can count the number of black people I've seen in RL on one hand. I've also seen very few Arabs, although where I live there are lots of Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrants, and in other parts of Scotland there are a lot of Poles.

I can't say there have been any real problems with these groups, not on a national scale, or from personal experience. The local Paki's (corner shop for those wondering) was run by as nice a guy as you could hope to meet. On a wider scale, I also don't think there have been problems along the lines of those mentioned with Arabs, but then I guess they are different cultures.

The Polish are generally regarded as good, honest hard workers. The only problem is they tend to support Celtic. :whip:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Yall invited them in the firstplace no?

---

No, not unless you count the Afro-Carribeans who came over after WWII, and are not a part of the current problem. Most of the reaction today is against Africans and Arabs who have migrated in the last 20 years or so, being either 1st or 3rd generation.

Quote:

---

You need them don't you?

---

Not at all, all they do is undercut the native work force.

This American myth that, "Europe needs brown people" is just that, a myth. The entire sodding continent is fit to burst, and every country has levels of unemployment greater than the number of jobs taken by migrants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

This American myth that, "Europe needs brown people" is just that, a myth. The entire sodding continent is fit to burst, and every country has levels of unemployment greater than the number of jobs taken by migrants.

---

Actually, there is plenty of room in the East of Europe, it is just that all those from the East of Europe and out of Europe all seem to want to magically come to England.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

Actually, there is plenty of room in the East of Europe, it is just that all those from the East of Europe and out of Europe all seem to want to magically come to England.

---

Plenty of room in Wales too.....

Especially since she seems to be in a terminal strop and isn't talking to me any more.

I'd say things are improving, but as I am getting older so do the people I meet. Don't feel bad because you can see what's right in front of you, and there are problems with muslim/arab youths, people who will just dismiss that annoy me somewhat. Don't worry you are not a racist, those are the people saying they are all scum.

This thread could be a case study on the results of years of conditioning in political correctness. It highlights a major problem in modern Western thought. Instead of focusing on the real problem, our OP lingers in fear and self loathing over the mere thought of harboring any racist feelings.

The increasing anger the OP has towards the Arabs is obviously a reaction to their behavior, not their race. Their ethnicity does not give them special status in society to act inappropriately.

I think the issue has more to do with poverty and a lack of social mobility, more than anything else. I, like Beskar, come from The North, and I come from a particularly white part of it. There were no non white kids at my primary school, there must have been no more than six non-white kids at my secondary school, out of a student body of 1,500, and there are maybe a few more at my college, which is of a similar size.

And yet, there is a pervasive, all-encompassing fear of immigrants, and immigration. Never mind the fact that immigration is negligible in my community. Never mind the fact that immigrants have a (general) economic benefit to the nation. Never mind the countless statistics that prove that immigrants are less likely to cause crime, put less strain on public services etc. It is so utterly out of proportion that it cannot be called anything other than how Gordon Brown called it, bigotry.

I wanted to post some more thoughts, but I'm very tired

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

This thread could be a case study on the results of years of conditioning in political correctness. It highlights a major problem in modern Western thought. Instead of focusing on the real problem, our OP lingers in fear and self loathing over the mere thought of harboring any racist feelings.

The increasing anger the OP has towards the Arabs is obviously a reaction to their behavior, not their race. Their ethnicity does not give them special status in society to act inappropriately.

---

uh-huh, now am I so smart that I see it earlier or am I clumsy because I say it earlier? OP shows how suffocating the social control of the leftist church can be. Poor guy is getting doubts.

Man, all the whites in the Americas should go back to Europe and make the browns over there an even smaller minority.

Then we can all live in harmony or somethin like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

This thread could be a case study on the results of years of conditioning in political correctness. It highlights a major problem in modern Western thought. Instead of focusing on the real problem, our OP lingers in fear and self loathing over the mere thought of harboring any racist feelings.

The increasing anger the OP has towards the Arabs is obviously a reaction to their behavior, not their race. Their ethnicity does not give them special status in society to act inappropriately.

---

What is the real problem?

I agree there ethnicity gives them no special priviliges, however the European welfare state/though police has given them those priviliges. They've kind of dug there own grave

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phillip et all

Not at all, all they do is undercut the native work force.

This American myth that, "Europe needs brown people" is just that, a myth. The entire sodding continent is fit to burst, and every country has levels of unemployment greater than the number of jobs taken by migrants.

---

Well they are here, and you probably wont be kicking out 3rd gens so Europe is going to have to learn how to deal

Quote:

---

Man, all the whites in the Americas should go back to Europe and make the browns over there an even smaller minority.

Then we can all live in harmony or somethin like that.

---

I can't stress how much you're stuck with me

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I can't stress how much you're stuck with me

---

I try my best to love you and your family and your people, but... it's SOOO hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

I try my best to love you and your family and your people, but... it's SOOO hard.

---

My people?

I have no people I represent myself

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Subotan

I think the issue has more to do with poverty and a lack of social mobility, more than anything else. I, like Beskar, come from The North, and I come from a particularly white part of it. There were no non white kids at my primary school, there must have been no more than six non-white kids at my secondary school, out of a student body of 1,500, and there are maybe a few more at my college, which is of a similar size.

---

A college of 1500 people? I saw single classes at the University of Texas that were nearly half that size.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Man, all the whites in the Americas should go back to Europe and make the browns over there an even smaller minority.

Then we can all live in harmony or somethin like that.

---

Interesting idea. Perhaps you can get some pointers from the Carthaginians or the Almohads....