Halberdiers

Having recently read through the Golden Hoard thread I noticed that the old arguments for and against Halberdiers had come up. Personally I lover those guys. I completely replace spears with them. Yes they have low moral. You just have to make sure you build them only where you have some moral boosting buildings. A church and requiem at minimum. I believe that gives +3 to moral. Next only let them attack Calvary and other Armored units, but only when those are close to your lines. Never let armor piercing units near them. Also don't let them receive a Cav charge while just standing there. Have them charge the incoming Cav. Pavise arbalesters set on hold formation, hold position do a good job taking charges and hold long enough for the Halberdiers to engage the Cav.

As far as I've heard the morale does not sum up (though I am not that sure, really). But even +2 morale, even +1 morale can work well if placed nicely (on a hill). I've noticed that whilst playing from high starting age (your forces are not that big and it seems that the Horde is slightly(!) smaller and also shows more preference towards horse archers than heavy cavalry). Halberdiers seems to have slightly lower upkeep cost than basic spears... However, they are slightly more expensive... Basically, my recent experience with the Byzantines High/Hard/ VI shows that the main killing units are the arbalesters (pavised or not). Strong archer units (like Bulgarian brigands and the Trabezond archers) are appreciated, though not obligatory. The cavalry deals well with the Golden Horde infantry. The fearsome heavy cavalry of the Horde dies easy when blocked by spears and attacked from the rear with Varangian guard (they can be well replaced with Chivalric foot knights) or just a mercenary unit like billman. I have not tried to leave the spear unit alone whilst I pepper the Horde unit with arrows

Perhaps the Halberdiers seem to be most useful as the Russians since apart from the woodsmen (though they are not that bad, really but a bit fragile) they do not have anything different from halberdier that is armour piercing. Basically, yes, the Halberdiers are an option, if you have them. And as long as you have the time to build churches and other niceties before the Horde arrives (though I admit the backbone of the army was the plain spearman that is also not famous with its good morale). And once again, the main killing is done from the arbalests esp. vs. the horse archers of the horde. If youy play as the Russians, do not forget to take some Druzhina cavalry with you! I used it as a mercenary unit as the Byz and it is perfect at flanking the Horde Heavy Cav after the latter is pinned! The Druzhinas also work well against the GH warriors.

Why do you use the expensive (and requiring high tech development) Pavise arb. to hold the cavalry charge? I believe they will lose about 1/3 of their number in the process. Spare them.

In the last battles with the Horde (that I mentioned), things were simply desperate for the Horde. More than 1:10 even 1:15 casualty rate and this mainly some arbalests and few cheap spears... Of course, I never meet the Horde on flat but rather fight on the nice Georgia map with a good general. I really started to wonder why I did bother to take more than 5 units of Varangian guard, though I admit I preferred to use billman (1 unit for all the battles) to flank.

P.S. The main disadvantage of the Halbs is on the offensive + they require a higher tech than the plain spears (level citadel). If you play at early, it will be easy but if you start playing on high you basically have 1 province with citadel in the best possible case.

Halberdiers are simply redundant; the only faction that can find uses for them are the Russians, due to lack of alternatives (and not even them! just remembered that the russians can rain militia seargents...). Catholics can have the much better dismounted chivalric knights and can fare better even with upgraded Militia Seargents due to the later's higher stamina that causes them to be far more useful than the awkward halbs. The Byzantines have the Varangians that are all is needed. The Turks have the heavy Janissaries. The Almohads have Militia Seargents that can do the job as i have said. Only the Egyptians lack a heavy infantry armor piercing elite unit (the Abyssinians are outclassed due to low armor and defence and need substantial upgrading to fare decently against heavily armored infantry opponents).

The problem of the halberdiers is that their role as a unit is supported only by part of their stats. Part of their stats says that they are a "slow but tough" unit, that can grind opponents to submission, but their low morale and low stamina, that translates into lower morale as a battle progresses, mean that they cannot hold in long slugging matches against high morale or high charge opponennts (and even less to knights and heavy cav that have both!) - and such a luxury cannot be had in the battlefield, especially in long drawn affairs against the Horde. Their low base attack (1) makes their problems even more pronounced. For comparison, Billmen, that outclass the halbs in every way, have a base attack of 2, which is ap and morale 2 (comparing with the 0 of the halbs), and excellent stamina.

Halberdiers should have a base attack of at least 2, normal speed and morale of 4, to be a unit that is worth upgrading the town_watch to level 3 (in a Citadel iirc, as castles do not give the 3rd town watch level!).

I think that m52 description's about their uses is fairly accurate; in effect halbs have to be babysitted and used way too ecclecticaly to be a useful unit in the battlefield.

:bow:

Granted that if you try and use Hals to grind anything other then heavy armor and or horses they will lose. That is what units like CMAA are for. Ddismounted chivalric knights are very nice, they are also far more expensive.

The GH thread explains it all IMHO. (i.e. "why halbs are crap and what to do about it")

:bow:

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Originally Posted by m52nickerson

Granted that if you try and use Hals to grind anything other then heavy armor and or horses they will lose. That is what units like CMAA are for. Ddismounted chivalric knights are very nice, they are also far more expensive.

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Just a note: the halberdiers are useful only on passive defense (staying on hill, wating for the enemy to come, turn him into flight and no pursuing him). Everything else results into disaster that I (almost) experienced in another battle with the Horde. The battle was saved not by the Varangians, not by the hired mercenary Halbs but by wretched Spearman who were dying for their fatherland. From this moment on, the plain, simple spearman is highly appreaciated. Of course, it is true that the Byz does not have anything better but what they have is not insufficient.

CMAA are nice, though they have no business in a thread for the Horde, as you know.

As you stated in the opening post, the halbs are not good for taking charges. I am not sure they can also be let loose against enemy infantry armored units, especially ap, armored infantry units; they have an attack of 1ap against infantry that is really poor and in my experience they often lose. Their advantage against cavalry is real however (ue to the +3/+1 anticav bonus) - provided that they are not chraged (because there is a very real danger they brake). Having a unit of pavise arbs/crossbows on hold position/formation and in loose formation stop an enemy cavalry charge and then bring the halbs in, will work. It is in my experience the only thing they can do, but not too many times, because they get tired and soon they are not able to do even that.

Dismounted CKs in vanilla can be switched between mounted and dismounted and although indeed expensive they are worth every penny they get - unlike imo the halberdiers.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by gollum

As you stated in the opening post, the halbs are better not for taking charges. I am not sure is they can also be let against enemy armor units, especially ap, armored infantry units; they have an attack of 1ap against infantry that is really poor and in my experience they often lose. Their advantage against cavalry is real however - provided that they are not chraged (because there is a very real danger they brake). Having a unit of pavise arbs/crossbows on hold position/formation and in loose formration stop an enemy cavalry charge and then bring the halbs in will work. It is in my experience the only thing they can do, but not too many times, because they get tired and soon they are not able to do even that.

Dismounted CKs in vanilla canbe switched between mounted and dismounted and although expensive they are worth every penny they get - unlike imo the halberdiers.

:bow:

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To ruin the reputation of the halbs even more. In a certain battle, due to miscalculation how much I've been outnumbered, I was forced to send Byz cavalry and to stop a unit of Halbs. In order to give a chance of my cavalry army simultaneously used some Naptha to bombard the Halbs. It worked, though it was evertyhing a man should not do. In fact, the enemy army broke right there. But I presume I was lucky that day.

Do not tell me these Pavised poor souls have a chance against the GH cavalry... and until the slow halbs wrap around the cavalry... And not to forget that the GH cavalry tends to pull back and charge for a second time. Are you sure it will not make many wives unhappy (well, most of the wives; few may think of it as hitting the lottary...) ? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Prince Cobra

To ruin the reputation of the halbs even more. In a certain battle, due to miscalculation how much I've been outnumbered, I was forced to send Byz cavalry and to stop a unit of Halbs. In order to give a chance of my cavalry army simultaneously used some Naptha to bombard the Halbs. It worked, though it was evertyhing a man should not do. In fact, the enemy army broke right there. But I presume I was lucky that day.

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Halbs are not good defenders vs cavalry, they're good attackers vs cavalry (but not head on). This is why attacking them with cavalry works well. Any infantry unit that is charged and routs due to poor morale is a sitting duck for cavalry anyway - but a heavily armoured, slow infantry unit with poor morale is quite simply good for nothing.

In fact the pavise halbs in hold formation/hold position can hold a charge Prince Cobra. If they are in loose formation the halbs (or other ap heavy infantry) can pass right through them and engage the MHC, while the arbs keep firing at them at point blank. This can be a useful tactic against the Horde: bring a single pavise unit and use it in loose formation at the front row - even after its ammo is off. They will attract all the ammo of the MHAs and MWs and also provide a usefull barrier between the MHC and the rest of the arbs that should be a bit further up the slope. Obviously they need protection from the MHC with heavy ap infantry and spears, in odrer not to be swamped or have too many casualties in melee.

:bow:

Perhaps Polish Halbs are better then most, but I charge cavaly head on with them all of the time in my campaigns. That includes heavys. Most of the time the cavalry routs after only a few moments. Yes the halbs take a few loses, but far far less then the cavs unit.

.....and yes Prince Cobra Pavised Arbs can hold up to a GH charge unitl the halbs engage. Not the best way to do it by far but it works.

From a battle with the GH in which I used my halbs.

how I lined up......

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1.../GHbattle4.jpg

an early charge

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1.../GHbattle2.jpg

the halbs holding there own

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1.../GHbattle1.jpg

....and again

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1.../GHbattle3.jpg

the final result

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1...attlefinal.jpg

My four unit of halbs killed 544 GH horses and lost 95 men out of 240 but never broke.

Your halbs have the silver armor upgrade, valor 2, and i dont know how much base morale (what church line buildings did the province you trained them in had?)

Without any additional morale, just by the valor, the halbs have +4 morale and +2/+2 att./def to their base stats. They take also another +3armor and +3defence from the armor upgrade. They also outnumber the cavalry because of the bridge situation and have their flanks covered because of the bridge situation. Not the best of examples.

:bow:

The halbs valor is from the general so not moral bonus. They were trained in a provence with a church and relquary. So that would be +3 morale. I agree that is it no the best example, but it was the one on hand. I use them simeratly in open field battles, to intercept any Cav that charge my lines.

.....and just so we are clear, I'm not claiming that out of tbe box halbs are going to do much. You do need to get them morale upgrades. Generals with + to morale also help.

What class of general were the AI fielding? I'm guessing a 0 star or very low. Also I can only see one valour pennon per unit and only in the forth screenshot down - in the other screenshots I cannot make out any pennons at all. Valour makes a huge difference and any such test must be carried out on a level field with equal valour and upgrade stats and 0 star generals on both sides. The bridge scenario also puts the attacker at a huge disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by m52nickerson

The halbs valor is from the general so not moral bonus. They were trained in a provence with a church and relquary. So that would be +3 morale. I agree that is it no the best example, but it was the one on hand. I use them simeratly in open field battles, to intercept any Cav that charge my lines.

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The units do get a morale bonus from the general, the bonus from the church and reliquary would also skew the results. Gonig by his personal on the field valour of 10, I would say your general could not have been less than a 5 star?

Yes my general was 5 stars at the time. I did not think that the valor given by generals included a morale boost.

I'm sure that if you ran a zero valor unit of halbs against a zero valor unit of heavy cav the halbs would break. I'm not trying to argue against that, and stated right off the bat that halbs need morales boosts.


....then again

I ran at test of basic halbs (no upgrades) vs basic chiv knights.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1...rson/test2.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1...rson/Test1.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1.../TestFinal.jpg

The halbs won, killing 30 and losing 8. Re-running the test gave similar results each time. The halbs often wavered but did not break. The test was run on normal difficulty.

Interesting result, but in a head on confrontation against the AI with 2 ranks deep formation, my money would be on the halbs anyway - especially in the hands of a human player. They have a cavalry attack bonus after all and the long drawn out formation allows them to "wrap" around the enemy cavalry's deeper column. The halbs also have the advantage in numbers. I don't think the issue in debate here is "can halbs kill cavalry?" - they can. The issue is, are they worth the money when compared to similar units that can perform the same job - I would say not.

Head on is also never the best for cavalry as it does not take full advantage of their greater mobility. If the Knights had moved onto a flank and charged then withdrawn a few times, while giving the halbs the run around, the battle would have had a very different outcome.

The good thing about JHI, billmen and CFK is that they are also quite simply very good infantry units - not just role specific cavalry killers. All of these units have better overall stats to halbs.

When I used to play MTW I would make exensive use of the CFK (dismounted CK) in anti-mongol defences. CFK were solid and dependable for those horrendously long battles, even when tired. Halbs ruined my defensive line up countless times, by routing en masse and taking other units with them. This is because halbs take too many morale hits (to their already low base morale) from these gruelling battles in the heat for hours on end.

I suppose it's "horses for courses", but I prefer a combined arms approach to defence rather than a mass of polearms units. To me it makes more sense to field a lot of spears and missiles and use polearms or axes in lesser numbers as flanking units. I've always found this strategy to deal the most damage and to be a better use of resources.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa

I suppose it's "horses for courses", but I prefer a combined arms approach to defence rather than a mass of polearms units. To me it makes more sense to field a lot of spears and missiles and use polearms or axes in lesser numbers as flanking units. I've always found this strategy to deal the most damage and to be a better use of resources.

:bow:

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Perhaps it comes down what people prefer. I don't like using spear units. I would rather use halbs then can charge forward past my missile units and engage incoming cav.

love halbs for blocking bridges on defense. they're also great for defending fortifications. halbs too slow for the open field. if the AI is using them i'll kite them away with a missle horse while i deal with the rest of their army. on paper they look very close to billmen but for some reason i've seen some stupidly heroic billmen while halbs fare only slightly better than the faster and cheaper spears.

I thoroughly enjoyed the results of your test, nickerson. As has already been pointed out, this discussion resembles the one in the "Golden Horde" thread. I felt that the issue was obscured there in a manner similar to what's happened here.

The argument against halbs shouldn't be that they're useless, but that they offer a worse exchange in the kill/death ratio compared to spears + flankers. Halbs are sensitive souls who need to be watched over. Done correctly, they provide a certain deterrent to HC flankers. As I said in "Golden Horde", I, personally, prefer the traditional high ratio approach to recieving charges - spears + flankers. With the flankers being MS, most likely.

If the argument against them is regarding kill/death ratio then I son't see a problem. I admit that spears + flankers are going to kill more with less losses. Even when I'm using Halbs I still flank with my Cav in order to break the enemy quicker. It sounded to me that people were arguing that Halbs were usless for other then arrow catchers. I find them easier to use then spears especially when I'm using Arbs.

I think a lot of people give the halbs more heat than they deserve. Countercharging with polearms absolutely works, hands down no questions asked. If by "works" we mean that they defeat the charging cavalry 1on1. As I said, I'm all for the traditional approach and, so, do not use halbs. But that's not the issue.