Poison Arrows

Hello again,

Time to bother you with my questions once more!
This time I would like to know your opinions regarding the use of poisoned arrows. AFAIK, many peoples, like the Scythians and the Indians, were known of using such projectiles. There are also accounts of Romans suffering from toxic arrows during the 3rd Mithridatic War.
I also recall seeing a celtic arrowhead specially designed to be filled with poison (hollow with a little hole on it).
Were such arrows often lethal? I mean was the number of after-battle deaths ,due to poisoning, high enough to be simulated in EB II?

I dont know how it could be simulated in the engine, more damage? more lethality? nulifies the efect of the "recovering anciliaries" (like doctor)?
Any ideas?

A poison arrow you say? Supposedly that's what killed Achilles...

I haven't really heard about it. If you could cite some examples and texts I would be interested in reading them as would many others on the team. But no, we probably wouldn't use it because that seems unlikely; I would be curious as to how a society before modern chemistry could mass-produce enough of the poison to equip their army; and quite frankly I fear it would make EB2 a laughing stock.

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Originally Posted by abou

I haven't really heard about it. If you could cite some examples and texts I would be interested in reading them as would many others on the team. But no, we probably wouldn't use it because that seems unlikely; I would be curious as to how a society before modern chemistry could mass-produce enough of the poison to equip their army; and quite frankly I fear it would make EB2 a laughing stock.

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I found this site: http://www.mahalo.com/arrow-poison .It has some information (sadly, wikipedia-based) and lists some toxic plants. If I come across some historical account, I will post it.
Oh, and no I wouldn't like EB II to become a laughing stock, I was merely asking a question.

how to emulate poisoned weapons??? I dodn't know if poisoned weapons exists in Europe too... at least in Asia and Africa, that's TONS of it, and currently, I also have the Headache on how to represent poisoned blade, arrows, and spears, that my Nusantara TW factions should have in a lot... :wall:

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

how to emulate poisoned weapons??? I dodn't know if poisoned weapons exists in Europe too... at least in Asia and Africa, that's TONS of it, and currently, I also have the Headache on how to represent poisoned blade, arrows, and spears, that my Nusantara TW factions should have in a lot... :wall:

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Descr_projectiles

Add a trait called, "poisoned" make it +1 lethality or +3 damage

~Jirisys (correct me if i'm wrong on the edition of the descr file)

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Descr_projectiles

Add a trait called, "poisoned" make it +1 lethality or +3 damage

~Jirisys (correct me if i'm wrong on the edition of the descr file)

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very wrong you...
actually, it should be something that made the enemies not got insta-death in the field, but some seconds or minutes after the volley, some men will fall out randomly...

even I was actually consider reskinning "flaming arrows" effects, so they will look green (aka poisoned), instead of being orange (fire - fiery arrows was almost only used at the siege battle)

You guys should read Greek Fire, Poison Arrows & Scorpion Bombs: Biological and Chemical Warfare in the Ancient World by Adrienne Mayor. It's full of information on such things. You'll find that many ancient Europeans used poison arrows extensively.

But did they use them en masse, during battles? That strikes me as extremely unlikely from my knowledge of ancient history.

Using the MTWII Kingdoms ability, can't you use the ability from Trebuchets and hornet throwers? Which make the flags turn green.

~Fluvius

Poison arrows were indeed used en mass in battle by many, such as the Scythians and Indians, although some, like the Celts, just used them for hunting.

As for differentiating poison arrows from no poison ones, I know the Scythians marked their poison arrows with special designs.

Holy crap, that would be a game breaker. Horse archers with arrows that kill automatically and cause fear. Nasty.

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Originally Posted by Badass Buddha

Poison arrows were indeed used en mass in battle by many, such as the Scythians and Indians, although some, like the Celts, just used them for hunting.

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Come on, man. You can't just say indeed and leave it at that. That's a hefty claim and you need to cite it.

Say you have an army of 1,000 archers using these poison arrows. They may carry something along the lines of 30 arrows each with, just for argument, 1 gram of poison each. That means the refinement of 30 kg of poison to be refined and distributed to an army. Considering the era, call me skeptical.

EDIT: Oh, and before I forget, Greek Fire, Poison Arrows & Scorpion Bombs: Biological and Chemical Warfare in the Ancient World hasn't exactly gotten glowing reviews from academics either.

I can't speak for the ancient era but in later times, one of the more common ways of producing "posion" arrows was to dip them in sewage, of which there was a plentiful supply of in most armies.

In the absence of evidence of widespread poison use, I'd say its a negligible factor in ancient warfare and "below the radar" in terms of the game engine, ie something that can't be meaningfully represented.

My guess is that ancient people used poisons if and when available, and maybe it even had an effect sometimes. IIRC classic sources like Suetonius attribute many political murders to poison so people back then believe them to be effecacious: its entirely likely some archers probably employed poison on their arrows. However delivery of toxins is problematic (eg the "sewage on the arrow" idea above: good luck getting a turd to balance on the arrowhead) and the lack of a chemical industry turning out consistent batches of efficacious toxin year round argues against a consistent effect on warfare.

I strongly doubt there was a widely available poison of the order of say the classic arrow poison frogs used in the Amazon (unless Thor Heyerdahl could prove frogs sailed balsa wood rafts via Greenland...). Some ancient people undoubtedly used poisons in hunting and warfare, but they also said spells to their gods and painted blue symbols on themselves to turn aside weapons.

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Originally Posted by abou

Come on, man. You can't just say indeed and leave it at that. That's a hefty claim and you need to cite it.

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That's fair. I'm sorry, but I've nothing to cite at the moment. I'll try to find something at the nearby university.

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Originally Posted by abou

Oh, and before I forget, Greek Fire, Poison Arrows & Scorpion Bombs: Biological and Chemical Warfare in the Ancient World hasn't exactly gotten glowing reviews from academics either.

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The book was full of sensationalistic, "Flaming pigs" kind of stuff, but there was some legit information in there. I'll have to find it again.

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Originally Posted by abou

Say you have an army of 1,000 archers using these poison arrows. They may carry something along the lines of 30 arrows each with, just for argument, 1 gram of poison each. That means the refinement of 30 kg of poison to be refined and distributed to an army. Considering the era, call me skeptical.

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I understand your scepticism, but, since many soldiers brought their own arms and armor, maybe they brought their own personal vessel (or something) of poison as well. Just a thought, I don't have solid proof or anything.
I've done some research but the only book I found was "Greek Fire, Poison Arrows & Scorpion Bombs: Biological and Chemical Warfare in the Ancient World", that Badass Buddha mentions. If I come across something else I'll post it.