Fighting phalanx

Hi all

Could someone suggest a tactics for fighting against phalanx armies? I play as a Romani and Ptolemoi keeps attacking me in Africa. My armies consist mainly of Camilian and Polibian hestai and principles with 2-3 units of Numebian skirmishers.

The only way I can win agaist a phalanx is to attack each of them with at least two armies -- from the front and the back. This requires me to engage only when I have numerical advantage and still I suffer huge losses. Against one of the elite phalanx, I sometimes have to use 3-4 units of veteran hestai/principles.

Is there any other way? Also do you use "guard mode" for units that fight phalanx face to face?

Another unrelated question -- is there any way to direct your units armies to go directly straight (the way it is possible to do in Empires). I only found a shortcut for rotating units and moving armies to a required location is always rather cumbersome and unpredictible.

Thanks.

Armies containing a lot of phalanxes can be tough. Try not using your skirmishers unless they're throwing javelins into their back, and keeping your guys hitting their front from getting to vigorous. Dancing in front of a phalanx is much more effective than actually fighting. If you hit their weaker flank hard enough, you can break their morale. Or just recruit elephants in Africa :). For better tips, just use the search function. I'm sure that question has been answered countless times.

As far as moving an army straight forward, I have two ways of doing that. First, select your main line of troops (ungrouped) (relatively symmetrical or uniform is best) then order them to walk to the farthest possible point in the direction you want them to go. Because you're telling them to move somewhere far off, they go relatively straight, and don't think you're trying to maneuver them in some tricky fashion. This is especially effective with phalanxes in phalanx and guard mode, as they tend to halt on contact with the enemy instead of pushing through them. Otherwise you need to be relatively confident you can change your army's orders at the right time.

The other main option is alt-move. Select your units (again, relatively symmetrical helps because the computer will put the weighted 'center' of the units you're selecting where your mouse pointer orders them, if a cavalry unit or two is way to the side or one wing is heavier that can make things a bit wonky) and hold 'alt' while ordering them to move. They might not walk straight, but upon reaching the destination they will re-order themselves into the exact formation they were in when they started.

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Originally Posted by vladiator

My armies consist mainly of Camilian and Polibian hestai and principles with 2-3 units of Numebian skirmishers.

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It sounds as if your army composition is the issue. Triarii, especially during the Camillian Era are key since you're having trouble against elites. Triarii are the best equipped Roman infantry to handle opposing elite troops early on. Also cavalry is key against a phalanx, allowing you to flank the phalanx quickly while your infantry to engage the phalanx from the front, and then your cavarly to hit the phalanx from the rear. If the phalanx turns to face your cavalry, then your infantry can slaughter them but try and stop your horses before they hit the wall of pikes. Also, most phalanx units are more vunerable to missiles than most other "civilized" infantry, so bring more missile units with you. They are most effective hitting a phalanx in the rear with missiles, but they are also effective after they run out of ammo because they are relatively quick infantry that can flank the slow pikemen and do a lot of damage by charging the phalanx from the rear and engaging in a melee battle.

If you insist on using the army composition that you have, change the formation your army is in to an asymmetrical formation.

The one I use all the time in multiplayer battles (Vanilla) is to refuse one flank and weight the other, seen in my diagram below (the 20 O's represent the enemy phalanx, the 20 X's are my short spear/sword infantry):

..OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


....XXXXX
..XXXXXXX
...............XXXX
........................XXXX

When my units meet the enemy line, my units in the center and right flank halt, so it looks like this in the battle:

..OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
....XXXXX
..XXXXXXX
...............XXXX
........................XXXX

Then the units in the 2nd line of my left flank use their superior numbers to push and flank my enemies right flank, and collapse that part of their line:
.OO
XXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
XXXXXX
..XXXX
...............XXXX
........................XXXX

If my enemy attempts to help his right flank with units from the center or left flank (indicated by the blue arrow), this will expose these units and his line, as they must come out of their phalanx formation, allowing my center or right flank to charge and exploit the weakpoint created, and hit his phalanx units from the side:
.OO.....<-- OOO
..XXOOOOO..X..OOOOOOOOO
XXXXXX ......XXX
..XXXX
..........................XXXX


Finally, if the enemy advances on my shorter line in an attempt to overextend my right flank, their units will naturally break formation, and this will result in an ability for my units to easily hit the phalanx on the side where it is vulnerable (indicated by the red arrows) and rout the phalanx long before the enemy move their units to extreme right of my line and successfully flank me since my units on the right are so far back:

..OOOOOOO
....XXXXX->O
..XXXXXXX->OOO
.................XXXX->OOOOOOOOO
............................XXXX


This is the way to fight phalanxes when you must rely heavily on an infantry army.

Thank you very much guys.

Could someone just clarify whether it is advisable to use the "guard" mode?

Yeah with heavily armored Polybian units facing a phalanx head on, use guard mode. This will decrease casualties on your side while still pinning the phalanx so others can flank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vladiator

Another unrelated question -- is there any way to direct your units armies to go directly straight (the way it is possible to do in Empires). I only found a shortcut for rotating units and moving armies to a required location is always rather cumbersome and unpredictible.
Thanks.

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If you ALT-Right Click when giving a move order the selected units will move there maintaining rotation and relative positions to each other.

Don't do formation orders with cav selected with infantry. Bad things happen.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Don't do formation orders with cav selected with infantry. Bad things happen.

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Such as your expensive cavalry (or general) slowly forming up inside an enemy phalanx or a bunch of spearmen. Or a river.

If you want to move your army in the same order you deployed them before moving, I always find that if I group them twice (Press g for group 3 times), and right click - drag, it gives the same formation but at any angle.

There is a list of tactical advice for various units/factions here.

Maybe they would fight better, if you would not call them "principles" and "hestai" ;-)

Fight phalanxes in open spaces or rough ground. kill mobile units first and leave the phalanx for last. Charge their rear and watch the fun.

I never have trouble with phalanx armies , they are one of the easiest to take down due to the lack of mobility. Try Saka , Pahlava , Roma , and Sarmatian ones for size!!

i recently discovered the wonders that cheap axeman can do on a heavy phalanx unit. In my latest Hayasdan campaign I decided to use the variouse cheap axeman found in the region (eastern axeman, cappadocians, anatolians) to fight phalanx units. I was suprised how effective these units were. Because of their speed, u can encircle phalanx units and cut them to pieces with the AP axes.

To go with my previous post about the wonders of overloading one flank and refusing the other, here is a replay of it working to a T in multiplayer (alas it is Vanilla).

Now I am using Carthage and using Phalanxes, but my opponent is using Macedon who have Phalanxes with much longer spears, and also they have 240 men per unit against my 160 man units. They are also Royal Phalanxes, which while not as good as my Sacred Band Infantry that I stack to my left flank, they are much better than my Peoni Infantry. Finally, this tactic would have worked if I had been playing nations without Phalanx Hoplite units too, like Rome or Germania.

You'll see in the this battle how I overrun his right flank, then how when he tries to help I stop him, and finally when he tries to over extend my right, I am able to hit his units from the side.

Its a pretty standard tactic mostly because its hard to multi-task on both fronts and you usually want your cav in one giant ball unless the opponent has cataphracts and you have fast cav.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Its a pretty standard tactic mostly because its hard to multi-task on both fronts and you usually want your cav in one giant ball unless the opponent has cataphracts and you have fast cav.

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I am the only person I've ever seen use it, and I've played literally thousands of multiplayer matches. Someday soon I'll get EB working multiplayer, maybe there I'll see it.

I didn't watch the replay so I went by your description. Did you actually do a staggered refused flank?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

I didn't watch the replay so I went by your description. Did you actually do a staggered refused flank?

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Watch the replay and find out?