ICJ: Kosovo: It is not illegal but I don't say it is legal

International Laws don’t prohibit declaration of Independence but don’t say it is legal.

The International Court of Justice, in a monument of casuistic, has found out a way to tell the law that tells nothing.

What in French we call a Norman Answer: I don’t say yes, I don’t say no, perhaps yes, perhaps no, etc.

And newspapers are actually praising the Courageous Ruling; they are apparently unaware it is an empty package.

What is the future for Kosovo?
Will this ruling help Peace, or will it push Serbia and Allies to stay firm on their positions?

What impact on all the Freedom Fighters and Separatists in the world?

First question: Can the Mexican in Texas declare Independence (or Corsican, Bavarians etc) as it is not illegal (but is not said it is legal as well) but as they don’t have a territory as such, it is not legal, as International Borders can’t be changed?

Second question: Is taking a part of territory including one populated with enemies without asking their opinions a way to built a peaceful democracy when all monuments and commemorations you built are in fact raised to commemorate your victory that is their defeat?

It was a smart decision. The court has reached an opinion about the document and not about the act itself, which is a really clever way of saying "I don't want to get involved". Nevertheless, it's a PR victory for the secessionists, both in Kosovo and elsewhere.

Not gonna change anything anyway, both sides made it known from the beginning that they will ignore court's opinion if they don't find it satisfactory. Several countries that weren't sure whether to recognize Kosovo or not may now do it but the big picture remains the same, which is stalemate.

Petitioning the court for an opinion was wrong move by Serbia anyway.

Yeah, this won't change anything at all. Opinions are already entrenched on the issue of Kosovan independence, and any debate on the subject is just preaching to the choir. Both sides could come out of this feeling pretty good, if not totally fulfilled and as such can keep their partisans solid. But that is about it.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

It is not illegal but I don't say it is legal

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Welcome to the Netherlands, have some cheese!

Such a shame really. Upholding blatant separatism like that is a mockery of justice.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Such a shame really. Upholding blatant separatism like that is a mockery of justice.

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That an American would EVER say this. Can't remember 1776 anymore? The American declaration of independence was a mockery of justice! Or do other rules apply to the US?

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

That an American would EVER say this. Can't remember 1776 anymore? The American declaration of independence was a mockery of justice! Or do other rules apply to the US?

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yeah and 17-08-1945 and 4 years of bloody war that kills a lot of dutchmen afterwards, declaration of Independence always generate such bloody effect (and those of T*** L****, and those who want to do with A*** and P**a, and so on....)

in the other hands, if you are a citizen of a country who had separatist problem, and you are drafted to become a conscript, and sent to "deal" with them, what would you do? (well, shooting some rebellios heads is not an easy job, that needs a lot of guts to do, especially when their friends could shoot you back from darkness)

On the hindsight, that means Abkhazia and South Ossetia are also perfectly legal.

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

That an American would EVER say this. Can't remember 1776 anymore? The American declaration of independence was a mockery of justice! Or do other rules apply to the US?

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Nah. 1776 was all about the British crown refusing to give the colonists a voice in the House of Commons. Had King George given us even a modicum of respect, we would have stayed with the crown. Taxation without representation.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Petitioning the court for an opinion was wrong move by Serbia anyway.

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It is considered wrong now because Serbia did not get the result it had expected.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

What is the future for Kosovo?

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A semi-failed state within Europe, propped up by continued foreign presence.


Will this ruling help Peace, or will it push Serbia and Allies to stay firm on their positions?
An independent Kosovo has become even more of an established fact. What result it will have on Serbia is difficult to guess. Spain has been trying to get back Gibraltar ever since 1713.
It is telling that Serbia expected the court to rule the independence declaration illegal. It was Serbia which petitioned the court. This was a bit out of touch with reality. 'If only the world would know the facts, would be willing to listen, to try and see Serbia's perspective, then this travesty would be reversed, wouldn't have happened at all'.

What impact on all the Freedom Fighters and Separatists in the world?
See answer to final question.

First question: Can the Mexican in Texas declare Independence (or Corsican, Bavarians etc) as it is not illegal (but is not said it is legal as well) but as they don’t have a territory as such, it is not legal, as International Borders can’t be changed?
It is not illegal to secede itself. The matter is simply not for international law to decide, but for political and military realities.

Second question: Is taking a part of territory including one populated with enemies without asking their opinions a way to built a peaceful democracy when all monuments and commemorations you built are in fact raised to commemorate your victory that is their defeat?
Territorial integrity is upheld by international law against other states. Not upheld internally.
That may be the other side of the coin of the verdict: secession is declared mostly an internal matter. This creates a space outsie international law, that not only the seccesionists, but also the main body can make use of. In effect, it is not illegal either to try to prevent a secession....
The verdict has been hailed as a victory by secessionists movements. I am not so sure. Anti-secessionists measures are declared outside international law as well.

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

yeah and 17-08-1945 and 4 years of bloody war

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And after the declaration of independence Indonesia became a democracy, had freedoms and lived happily ever after...

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

And after the declaration of independence Indonesia became a democracy, had freedoms and lived happily ever after...

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and still people in some ungrateful provinces demand secession.... :wall:
well.... some people never statisfied with what they got, and that's the truth, some did actually fought for some weird system of what so called "tyranical theocracy"
yes, they put some "democratic demands" only for international publicity....

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

It is considered wrong now because Serbia did not get the result it had expected.

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Nah. UN Charter explicitly forbids forceful change of borders. Serbia is a member of the UN and all nations that have recognized Kosovo have in fact done so contrary to the UN charter. Serbia should not have asked the court for the advisory opinion, it should have sued, plain and simple. It would have given the court much less manouvering space, and anyway, when you ask for an opinion, it means you aren't sure yourself, when you sue, it means you have been wronged and want the court to rectify it.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Nah. UN Charter explicitly forbids forceful change of borders.

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Tell me how force was involved in the declaration of independence.

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

Tell me how force was involved in the declaration of independence.

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unless that independence involved Gandhi (who was bright, genius, and charismatic man of peace), all other independence always involve blood and massive wars....

So, in one side we have Croatia and Serbia signing a Military Cooperation Treaty and the other side we have an Unsustainable Kosova where 10 % of the population will always refuse to share History and Vision.

I was hoping the ICJ would come with a little bit more courage and it will open the door for negotiation between the 2 entities.
Yes, the Serbs have to give up Kosovo but I am not sure that they want it anyway.
As Kosova, the leaders would have to come to term with their idea to impose their will on an unwilling minority.
Or they will have to choose the Croatian Solution but I am not sure they will be able to conduct this kind of operations, especially as it would create a flow of Refugees, the same kind that authorised NATO to attack Serbia.
100,000 Serbs fleeing Croatia in 1995 didn’t emote too much the world, but time changed.

So, in order to integrate Serbs into Kosova, the Kosovar will have to give-up all the symbols of their success, national heroes etc, and I don’t see how they could do this without questioning their own fight.

How will they resolve the mess created by Ashtisaari?
In failing to properly deal with all the aspects of the problem and the will of the populations, it opened the way for years of un-sustainability and the return of Balkanisation in the Balkans.

In my opinion, the ICJ failure to really give an answer will just prolong a situation “a la Bosnia” where a State can’t work properly as a part of the population doesn’t share the same political agenda that the rest.

The hope that the optimistic point of view will prevail, and no conflicts will be initiated by this “nothing to comment” as it makes clear that you can break away from a State only if you’ve got powerful allies to help you.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Will this ruling help Peace, or will it push Serbia and Allies to stay firm on their positions?
An independent Kosovo has become even more of an established fact. What result it will have on Serbia is difficult to guess. Spain has been trying to get back Gibraltar ever since 1713.
It is telling that Serbia expected the court to rule the independence declaration illegal. It was Serbia which petitioned the court. This was a bit out of touch with reality. 'If only the world would know the facts, would be willing to listen, to try and see Serbia's perspective, then this travesty would be reversed, wouldn't have happened at all'.

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Spain ceded Gibralter in the treaty of Utrecht, Serbia has certainly done no such thing.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Second question: Is taking a part of territory including one populated with enemies without asking their opinions a way to built a peaceful democracy when all monuments and commemorations you built are in fact raised to commemorate your victory that is their defeat?
Territorial integrity is upheld by international law against other states. Not upheld internally.
That may be the other side of the coin of the verdict: secession is declared mostly an internal matter. This creates a space outsie international law, that not only the seccesionists, but also the main body can make use of. In effect, it is not illegal either to try to prevent a secession....
The verdict has been hailed as a victory by secessionists movements. I am not so sure. Anti-secessionists measures are declared outside international law as well.

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I tend to agree with you position about anti-seccessionist forces having equal advantage, and like the ruling that limits international law in this sphere, it has no business here, but I now fully support the right of the Serb majority of north Kosovo to secede back into Serbia.

There is a part of me that says if you can take it and hold it then it is yours.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

There is a part of me that says if you can take it and hold it then it is yours.

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That's the de facto rule, as evidenced by such areas as Kurdistan, Tibet (or lack of it), Kashmir, and many areas of Africa.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

Tell me how force was involved in the declaration of independence.

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KLA, NATO, 1999, foreign troops still stationed in Kosovo etc... Declaration of independence is just a piece of paper. What it is based on, that's what's important.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

I tend to agree with you position about anti-seccessionist forces having equal advantage, and like the ruling that limits international law in this sphere, it has no business here, but I now fully support the right of the Serb majority of north Kosovo to secede back into Serbia.

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That's another problem. It seems that Kosovo, even if it isn't a UN member and fully recognized nation, can not have it's territorial integrity violated, even if its very existence is based on violating territorial integrity of another country... Go figure... And if someone dares mention double standards, it's gonna be "paranoid Serbia" again.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Go figure... And if someone dares mention double standards, it's gonna be "paranoid Serbia" again.

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I agree. The double standard and utter hypocrisy on the part of the West in this case are downright appalling.