polybian reforms

This is my first time playing the mod, and I'm playing as the Romans. I recently finished off all but one cartheginian territory (don't know where it is) and I recently recieved the polybian reforms. One thing I didn't know is that even if u have advanced barracks, u have to build another one to get the new reform, so i was wondering whether i should destroy an old barrack in order to get the new one.

In any case, I built a new barracks somewhere else to check out my new units. I was pretty pissed to find that the new polybian ones actually have worse attack/defense stats than the old ones. Is there something I'm missing here? Aren't reforms suppossed to improve your army?

Not all reforms are universally positive. The Roman infantry units typically receive higher defense and morale stats for the Polybian reforms. The Equites Romani, however, have a lower armor rating. The devs seemed to have followed historical trends. The Roman cavalry changed from bronze muscle cuirasses to lorica hamata, which should account for the drop off in defense rating. They do, however, have improved discipline ratings in the Polybian version.

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Originally Posted by carthage121

I was pretty pissed to find that the new polybian ones actually have worse attack/defense stats than the old ones.

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Triarii and equites are less well armored, Principes and Hastati are better. The attack rating for the Camillan principes is misleading because most (all?) spearmen get a +4 adjustment which I'm not going to explain. Suffice it to say that an attack ratings of 7 for a swordsman is equivalent to 11 for a spearman. The Polybian army as a whole is markedly superior to the Camillan.

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Originally Posted by carthage121

Aren't reforms suppossed to improve your army?

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Not necessarily, they are intended to demonstrate how ancient armies evolved with time.

The one exception, I think, is in their skirmishers - I find Camillan skirmishers very useful. By the Polybian Era they're just dead weight. But I suppose that works from a role-playing perspective - Rome's army is becoming more professional and is thus moving toward more heavy infantry and a reliance on allies to provide the lighter stuff. On the whole though, I agree with you Atilius - Polybian units are significantly better. -M

See this thread.

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Are Polybian units worse than Camillan?

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Short answer: No.

Longer answer: It's a myth arisen from the fact that certain Camillan units are better at certain specific tasks than their later counterparts. Triarii and Equites Romani are slightly worse overall after the reforms. Leves and Rorarii (IIRC) disappear. So much for the worse part.
However, your other units gain increased AoR. Hastati and Principes gain additional armour and become better at assault tasks. With Velites, you get skirmishers that are more reliable than Leves, better armoured and also cooler looking.

Your army as a whole loses some anti-cavalry potential but gains significantly more anti-infantry power. Armour increases on average (Skirmishers, Hastati, Principes), despite Triarii and Equites Romani losing one or two points.

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Originally Posted by Mulceber

The one exception, I think, is in their skirmishers - I find Camillan skirmishers very useful. By the Polybian Era they're just dead weight.

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Um, Velites are quite good. Better than Leves in any case.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Um, Velites are quite good. Better than Leves in any case.

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200 instead of 240 soldiers per unit, but only the same range attack and amount of throwing spears for more money. Okay, they have 3 or 4 armour points more and wield a small shortsword, but I use light skirmishers nearly never in melee especially when you have so strong infantry. You can debate if they are worse than Leves, but better in any case is just not true.

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Originally Posted by Rahl

200 instead of 240 soldiers per unit, but only the same range attack and amount of throwing spears for more money. Okay, they have 3 or 4 armour points more and wield a small shortsword, but I use light skirmishers nearly never in melee especially when you have so strong infantry. You can debate if they are worse than Leves, but better in any case is just not true.

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Did you check morale and discipline? :rolleyes:

Edit: I thought so. Velites have higher skill, mass, morale (by 3 points, no less), and discipline. Their secondary weapon is technically worse but against infantry still at least as good as the Leves' spear.
Check for yourself:
Velites
Leves

Leves are only better against non-ranged cavalry. Or if you just want to pump out as many javelins as possible.

overall you get drawn to fight more roman - with diciplined heavy sword wielding infantry of the line. your (roman) elites get less feasible - Triari and Equites. your levies get less numberous thus you have to rely on regional levies. It (coincidently)sorta prepares you to fight with marian troops - diciplined heavy sword wielding infantry of the line.
whereas the biggest adantage is the aforementioned AOR increacement.

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Did you check morale and discipline?

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Morale and discipline only become really useful once they get into melee, at which point they've already failed to fulfill their purpose. The point of skirmishers is to wear down the enemy WITHOUT engaging them in melee. Leves do that quite well, I find. Velites do not. We can argue numbers until we're blue in the face, but none of that matters in the face of what they actually do on the field. In my experience, Leves harass and wear down the enemy before retiring behind my lines. Velites do precious little damage and are unable to avoid being charged, at which point they fight ineffectively for a few minutes and then rout. -M

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Originally Posted by Mulceber

Morale and discipline only become really useful once they get into melee, at which point they've already failed to fulfill their purpose.

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I actually prefer skirmishers that don't rout on impact if they are accidentally caught in melee.

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The point of skirmishers is to wear down the enemy WITHOUT engaging them in melee.

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It's also quite handy if they can take a minimum of enemy fire (those elephants usually have archers on top...). Or if you can use them as auxiliary flankers. Velites are better at both.

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Leves do that quite well, I find. Velites do not. We can argue numbers until we're blue in the face, but none of that matters in the face of what they actually do on the field. In my experience, Leves harass and wear down the enemy before retiring behind my lines. Velites do precious little damage and are unable to avoid being charged, at which point they fight ineffectively for a few minutes and then rout. -M

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Leves have a few more men, but the ranged stats and stamina are the same. The difference cannot be that great. Especially seeing as I've used both with good success.


Anyway, the point is moot, since they fulfil subtly different roles - the Leves being "cheap skirmishers", i.e. a better version of Akontistai, whereas the Velites are more into the "good skirmisher" niche, being a slightly weaker version of Komatai. This means the Leves are better at range or defensive tasks, whereas Velites are better at "search and destroy", i.e. ambush, killing elephants, and scattering routers.

The only real downside to the reforms in the few turns where you are unable to replace units until the new barracks are built as well as the inability to retrain your main army anymore.
The first point is only really a major issue when the marian reforms come about though. Its a good few turns before you can build anything other than those dodgy guard units. Unless you have the foresight to already rely on regional units extensively.

I was thinking of, when and if I get the marian and augustus reforms, destroying an old barrack to build a new one so I don't have to wait as long.

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Originally Posted by carthage121

I was thinking of, when and if I get the marian and augustus reforms, destroying an old barrack to build a new one so I don't have to wait as long.

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For the marian you only have to build the top tier barrack (or the next tier if you haven't reach the top one) after the reform, and for the augustan you will actually need to destroy it (otherwise you'll keep repairing them) XD

I think the biggest advatage stragetically the Polybian Reforms have over the prior is the bigger area of recruitment of roman troops (specially if you have Allied Legions mod installed). It adds several new major urban centers to turn into new recruitment centers for Roman Armies. Which is useful for the relatively long haul youll have to trug to the Marius Reforms.

Though frankly I dislike the Elite Spearmen guys you get with Marius reforms and wished the Relisted Veteran Legions you get in Italy had more stanima (lazy dam retirees :P) lol...

It takes far less time to not destroy - especially for the Marian reforms when the game gives you a full new barracks ready-made for your new troops. Even for the Augustan reforms you're better off just upgrading your MIC regularly, as it will take far more turns to start from scratch and build 3-4 levels of MIC than it would to just make the upgrade. -M

Truly the Triarii get less armed, but they are way more professional and reliable troops, all the other get much better, I also like the velites better than the leves and accensi, when I get the reform, my army look much more like a roman legion then the camillan ones lol

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Originally Posted by carthage121

I recently finished off all but one cartheginian territory (don't know where it is) and I recently recieved the polybian reforms.

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Just on this point -- have you discovered the Boleares -- the island off the east coast of Spain? I was in the same situation as you until I accidentally came across it. The island is not visible if your ships simply follow the coastline -- you need to get a bit further into the Sea.

why waste valuable population when you can just recruit far better skirmishers from sicily, africa, and greece? I've never really needed to train skirmishers because they always end up as meat shields for archers/elephants and i find simply buying them and then killing them off battle per battle more efficient than going back and forth retraining skirmishers and depleting valuable pop for upgrades.

Then you are misusing skirmishers, they are a bloody efficient troop if you know how to use them, nice for destracting people and killing anything that ins not a phalanx or a hoplite

Agreed - Skirmishers can be very useful. Great way to soften up the enemy before your heavy infantry get involved. -M