To Germany!

Hi all!

I was wondering if people can offer some advice for defeating the Sweboz (as the Aedui)?

My main problems are:

1. The sheer quantity of Sweboz armies. As many people have pointed out they are poor quality and usually composed of levies, but even then there are still alot of them.
2. Forests. Now as the Aedui i like to use the wonderful Celtic slingers to wittle down the enemy before my infantry clash with them. On an open battlefield the lack of armour on Sweboz units makes this an effective tactic, however Germania has alot of forests and slingstones tend to be ineffective in forest.
3. Spears. My second tactic is to use Gallic heavy cavalry to overwhelm the enemy, either using hammer and anvil tactics or simply attacking skirmisher and light infantry from the flank. However the number of German units which wield spears makes this a dangerous tactic.

Any specific answers to these questions and all round advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Location.location.Location. ...make sure you leave your army away from patches of forest on the campaign map. defend bridges , go for the towns .Don't chase on campaign map.

if you must fight in forest , do so defending , not attacking.

I always tought that slinger are ineffective against unarmoured units...
In fact if you use Sotaroas (hoping you got the time of bondsmen), you'll see all the levies going down like flies...
I'll suggest an army of Bataroas, Gaelaiche, Sotaroas and Leuce Epos... If you can afford it get one or two Gaesatae/Uirodusios/Pictone Nietos ^^
Besiege or let your army being attacked, hold the line and leave fire at will for all units, as soon as the Sweboz will charge they flee and you can cut them down to pieces with your cavalry...

If you don't like it, create an army of swordsmen, naked fanatics and charge!!! XD

Bataroas and generally most high lethality units can do some damage to the most sweboz armies. they mostly consist of unarmored spearmen and psiloi with spears so you're best of with anything unmounted that has high lethality. for the rare occasions of open plain battles some imported archers or your very own slingers can prove usefull, not to mention sieges etc where even soatroas rule supreme^^... well until their warlord comes over for a piece of your levies ;)
personally I've only fought Celts-vs-Germanics battles on sides of the sweboz but from that experience I can tell you that apart from their superior sword percentage(and , forgive me Dugunthiz, their more varied roster) only more armor(which can be countered easily) and superior numbers could really bother me, as suebic troops normally have more staying power than gaulish.

ps I'd rather not take Germania(or the steppes for that matter): little to no gains coupled with high casualties by VERY adapted natives.

Use hammer and anvil, only use a really thin anvil. I mean really thin, three men deep units of lugoae in the center. Use slingers only for their family members. ALWAYS bring uirodusios or, if possible, gaesatae, because often AI sends a fullstack without FM, so they rout pretty easily. My battle line usually looks like this: Bataroas, Botroas and rest of your heavies take the far flanks, in the center static shallow line of spearmen with uirodusios behind, and operating as hammer family and leuce epos. I destroyed sweboz before reaching MICs for brihentin or neitos, nor did i need them. Also, i didn't really use slingers much, at least not against the sweboz... Btw, casse do an even easier job against sweboz. And, it is usually much easier when dealing with AI that spams fullstacks to be on the defence. For example, go into their province, and stand on a bridge/river crossing, and wait for the slaughter.

The key troops for crushing the Sweboz are leuke epos and slingers. Stone temples of Teutatis are helpful for levying the Leuke Epos at 2 chevrons from the start, and in general you should have at least 2 Leuke epos in addition to your FM in any army and try to ensure cavalry superiority at all times as this is the Sweboz weakness, especially for the AI which often builds up huge infantry hordes with no cavalry whatsoever. Also be sure your FM has a druidic surgeon, accept no substitute.

Mainly the way to kill them is to just march through and beseige their cities, your battles should for the most part be siege battles which you should always win with slinger/swordsmen, or defensive battles when the Sweboz attack you in march, or counterattack you when you besiege their cities. Generally I have very good success just stationing my line on an upslope, preferable near a clearing in the forest so that the slingers can skirmish effectively. Put the infantry on autofire (don't use any lugoae they die too easily) and let the slingers skirmish in front as the Sweboz approach. The trick is to harrass the enemy flank/rear as they approach with your light cavalry, especially on their unshielded right flank. This distracts them and often draws them into turning around and charging your cavalry to no effect, buying the slingers more time to rack up the kills. Any single Swebian infantry cohorts which stray too far from the herd should be simultaneously charged from three directions by three cavalry units, for an instant route. As long as you drive off the enemy cavalry with your own and harrass the Sweboz flank well as they advance, the slingers should do serious damage and the enemy will often route when they get close to your line and take javelin volleys from Bataroas, Gaelaiche, and Virodusios. Virodusios are especially good at this, put them in the front line since they carry 3 javelins instead of the standard 2, and all the javelin volley damage plus the fear effect maximizes the likelihood of the enemy routing. Run routers down with light cavalry, and when the firmer enemy cohorts begin to tire, hammer the Sweboz general's bodyguard with your Brihentin over and over till their general eats a lance. Once their general, if any, goes down, the rest tend to route pretty easily. As long as you have a druidic surgeon accompanying your FM, your kill ratios should range between 10 to 1 on up to 100 to 1 depending on your cavalry micro skills and army selection, and the presence or absence of enemy generals, since Sweboz infantry hordes without any generals are very easy to route.

The general concensus appears to be use heavy and shock infantry for the best chance of defeating the Sweboz.

@Ca Putt I would rather stay out of Germany as well but I need to crush them now before the Roman juggernaut starts up. My original plans were to expand into Iberia and take advantage of the lucrative mines there (in my current Carthaginian campaign I am funding 3 Punic and 4 allied Aedui armies from the mine revenues alone) however a Sweboz attack caused me to abandon those plans.

@Geticus, I did not know the temples of Teutatis provided such benefits,, interesting.

With regards to people's advice of simply march through Germania I have a problem with that which I will post as soon as I get a screenshot to show the current strategic situation.

Mass longswords of any type+charge
defeats anything

Welcome to Germania with it's swamps, moors and endless misty forests where mighty legions just vanish...
Since you already got good advice I have only one more idea. Build some ships and attack from the sea. The pirates of the baltic are dangerous but at least Kimbriolándám (modern day denmark), Hábukolándám (Netherlands) and if you are lucky the Gáwjám-Rugoz (on an island between Swebolandam and Skandinavia) can be attackt without battles in forests.

Also if you want to expand in Iberia, than buy some time with your armies and build stone walls in your "german" border, than simply garrison them with 2-4 swordsmen and 2 spearmen (just to be safe) and you'll destroy all their warriors as they climb up the ladders ^^
At this point conquer Iberia, but as you said keep an eye on the romans...

I prefer to use belgian troops to invade Germania. Your barracks are just right near german boarder, so you can start your invasion there and focuse town after town. Milnaht and Battacouri got better shields ( 4 instead of 3 ) and armour ( 6 instead of 5 in case of swordmen ) then most of their gaulic counterparts, superb morale value, and basically longer javeline range ( 47.5 vs. 45 at max. ). So, most of german troops will get slaughtered before they even get in range. Additional slingers/archers and Leuce Epos + Bodyguards will clear the routers.

Against masses of infantry, the fear factor is king. Archers with flaming arrows, bring some scary infantry, chariots (yes, you read right) and send a volley of javelins in the backs of your enemies followed by overwhelming charge of 3-1 local numerical advantage (preferably including cavalry). They will rout and you can move on to the next part of the line. A lot of your Gallic troops are good in forests too, and IMO you dont need slingers against sweboz, so while its probably better to avoid the chaos of forest battles, dont be scared of fighting them, you can win.

Your line troops just need to be any kind of javelin equipped troops with guard mode activated.

This post is good.

Just remember to use spies, armies should be Batroas,Iosata,Leuke epos . DONT use hammer and anvil, botroas are not subtle, they are meant to charge head on serching for an enemy head which they manage to do very well. Leuke epos are for harrasing , skirmishing and chasing, they are not shock cavalry, but your general unit is.

undress your soldiers and march on! put a lot of Uirodusios and Gaesatae to scare the hell out of them, help a lot in reducing the top quality Germanic morale.

and made sure you have leuce epos handy.

About forests:
Always send a spy on the way you want to move your army to avoid ambushes.
To get rid of forests is rather easy: build forts, that will create an open field around it.

A meta-strategic question: do you want to neutralize the Sweboz or take their land? The latter is not very profitable: the cities are poor and distances great, meaning you need to cover a long border with garrisons for little financial reward. The Sweboz regionals available to the Celts are nothing to write home about, and IIRC you can get better German units as mercs.

If your objective is merely to neutralize the Sweboz, why don't you simply garrison the river-crossings? They will waste their armies on your defensive line and you are free to take on more dangerous (and richer) foes.

There's alot of praise for Leuce Epos here. I must admit I have found them to be a very versatile troop type and a real pain to have to face. Ok I will start supplementing my army with "chaps in the nip" as people have suggested.

@Vollorix, at present I only posses Belgica Bellovaci, not Nervi, thus leaving me with an Eleutheroi "neutral" zone between myself and the Sweboz. Although a big fan of Belgic units (as anyone who has been subjected to my posts will no doubt have realised) myself my barracks in those regions are still under-developed and at present I only have access to Belgic spearmen.

@Ulpinus. That's a great help! Thanks. Although I would consider myself an environmentalist in the real world I will relish the chance of deforesting in the EB world. One queery though, does the game engine re-populate the area with trees as soon as the fort has dismantled though?

@Rahl. Not feasible I am afraid, my economy wouldn't support a fleet at this stage. Thanks for the tip though.

@Unintended BM. Thanks for the link!

@Ludens. If I may be honest I just wan't to neutralize the Sweboz. I have been quite far into Germania before as the Casse and your right, its not really worth it. I do intend to "Liberate" all the settlements with Celtic names (and Rhaetic and Ligurian if they are in my path or are particularly profitable) but as you said Germania isn't really worth taking unless your the Sweboz. I am far more worried, as Arjos hinted, about the Romans. How would you reccomend garrisoning the Germanic border? And with what?

Sorry if I didn't mention you by name but to everyone else thanks for the advice. I will post a picture of my current situaion this afternoon (GMT is currently 13.26) so you can all say what you think the next thing I should do is.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

A meta-strategic question: do you want to neutralize the Sweboz or take their land? The latter is not very profitable: the cities are poor and distances great, meaning you need to cover a long border with garrisons for little financial reward. The Sweboz regionals available to the Celts are nothing to write home about, and IIRC you can get better German units as mercs.

If your objective is merely to neutralize the Sweboz, why don't you simply garrison the river-crossings? They will waste their armies on your defensive line and you are free to take on more dangerous (and richer) foes.

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I thought the same way, but at some point i couldn't take it anymore, so gathered some troops and decided to wipe them out. No difficulties, yet... This is the army that obliterated four fullstacks without any significant problems. One thing though, i may need more cavalry, last time almost two units managed to escape.

https://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1751/keltoia.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ludens

The latter is not very profitable: the cities are poor and distances great, meaning you need to cover a long border with garrisons for little financial reward.

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Silengolandam should make for good revenue though, as it has two silver mines and two trade-boosting uniques. Together with paved roads that'll provide a very solid income, much like Helvetis.

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The Sweboz regionals available to the Celts are nothing to write home about, and IIRC you can get better German units as mercs.

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You should be able to train Dugundiz and Celto-Germanic spearmen. Both are very decent line spearmen that should nicely complement the Gallic armies (unless of course you don't care about historicity and just start fielding mass Bataroas/Mori Gaesum for the lulz). Also, there are Worgozez and mercenary nobles around.

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If your objective is merely to neutralize the Sweboz, why don't you simply garrison the river-crossings?They will waste their armies on your defensive line and you are free to take on more dangerous (and richer) foes.

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I support that notion. Just block them like the historical Gauls tried to do, and pillage Iberia and Italia instead. Possibly even North Africa...

Well if you want to neutralise them, capture 2-3 cities of them, smash everything to pieces and force diplomacy them back? (Unless your not a FD man).

Otherwise build forts at strategic locations, ie. before and after bridges. Whether you choose to arm the fort with an entire stack or single unit is up to you.

In my Romani file I had become quite wealthy, so I armed forts around the German border with full stacks of levies. Haven't had a random attack since!

https://s941.photobucket.com/albums/...Brennus1-1.png

This is the frontline as it stands at present.

My diplomatic stance is thus:

At War with- Romani, Sweboz.

Allies- Epirotes, Carthage, Casse, Getai, Lusotannan

Destroyed-Arverni

https://i941.photobucket.com/albums/...Brennus1-2.jpg

There we are!

I think that Romans are deffinitely a bigger threat here than Sweboz... But to get rid of those full stacks, stand on a bridge. Btw, this always works if the bridge is on their ground. If it is on a border, right-click on the bridge to see whose ground it's on. If enemy's, deploy. There are couple of useful tips on bridge warfare on this thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...or-New-Players

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Originally Posted by Brennus

There we are!

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This army is not very realistic... I can understand if you use it for autoresolving annoying battles though...

Also, why is Vesontio still a village?
Smart decision to leave Bagacos alone though. In my Suebi campaigns, I always leave Bagacos and Vindelicoppidos as buffer zones. Later on the Gauls capture them and build paved roads and other nice things there. Then I strike... ~D

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Originally Posted by athanaric

This army is not very realistic... I can understand if you use it for autoresolving annoying battles though...

Also, why is Vesontio still a village?
Smart decision to leave Bagacos alone though. In my Suebi campaigns, I always leave Bagacos and Vindelicoppidos as buffer zones. Later on the Gauls capture them and build paved roads and other nice things there. Then I strike... ~D

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If i tried to play using realistic armies I would do even worse than I normally do. I don't know why Vesontio is still a village, I enslaved it when I took it from the Arverni which might be the explanation your looking for.

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Originally Posted by Brennus

If i tried to play using realistic armies I would do even worse than I normally do. I don't know why Vesontio is still a village, I enslaved it when I took it from the Arverni which might be the explanation your looking for.

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Try to substitute the lower row of swordsmen with spearmen (Batacorii, Gaeroas, or Gaelaiche, not Lugoae). They're less useful vs German but more realistic. They do have superior javelin range and ammo compared to both Germanic units and Bataroas, though. Also, Sotaroas as a replacement for some of the slinger might be a good idea. Their range and ammo is abysmal, but they do more damage vs unarmoured units. Also, Leuce Epos are always a great addition to a Gallic army. Consider fielding a unit of Teceitos and Uirodusios each, as well.
With decent tactics, a Gallic army should be successful even if you don't spam Bataroas and slingers. (Though admittedly, Bataroas are the most cost-effective counter to Germanic units).

Try to lure the enemy into a massive javelin hail. That is more realistic than a bullet hail, and also better in forests. Batacorii have an excellent range and a supply of three javelins each. They make good lineholders for this campaign, while Bataroas (later supported by Milnaht) are better on the flanks.


Try something like this:

Code:

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Leuce Epos-Bataroas-------------------Sotaroas-------------------Bataroas-Leuce Epos
---------Uirodusios--Gaeroas-Batacorii-Batacorii-Batacorii-Gaeroas--Teceitos--------
Iaosatae---------------------------------Brihentin-----------------------------Iaosatae

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The slingers should be moved forward into the first rank at the start of the battle of course, until the enemy draws too close.

You dont need to hold your line one you are trying to smash your enemys...germanic units should cave in easily since this is the AI and it dosent know guard mode

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Originally Posted by NoHelmet

I thought the same way, but at some point i couldn't take it anymore, so gathered some troops and decided to wipe them out. No difficulties, yet...

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:laugh4: I usually ended up that way too. Agree on the need for light cavalry, and that the SPQR is the greater long-term threat. Better cripple them while they are still comparatively small. Your borders are good at the moment. You may want to take Bagacos so you won't need garrisons at Bratosporios and Vesontio (provided the Sweboz don't fling all their men at you, they will most likely take Bagacos at some point). However, Bratosporios is a long way from Bagacos and has no roads, so possibly a fast-moving garrison near Vesontio will suffice to counter Suebi incursions. If you have not traded maps, the Suebi may not even see Bratosporios. Bagacos, on the other hand, is very close to the Suebi, so expect a lot of combat there.

Obviously you should take Massalia: Tolosa and Burdigala are not a priority but may be worth taking if you don't expect an imminent Roman attack. I would not go down into Iberia further, no matter how tempting those Iberian mines may seem. You are planning a two-front war: best not get too close to the Lusotanians, even if they are your allies.

athanaric already gave good advice on countering the German troops.