Acronym junction, what's your function?

Hi all,

I've been editing and notifying people when they use two common internet/real life acronyms: WTF and MILF. Both of them, at least originally, stood for phrases invoking the f-bomb, which we do not permit at the Org.

Honestly, giving out even 0-point infractions for these acronyms is making me feel like a silly old man, so I would like to take the temperature of the Org. Also, if you have arguments for or against the open use of WTF and MILF, please write them here and let me hear you. At the end of the day the Org belongs to the patrons, and I don't want to make a major decision without hearing your points.

Cheers,

Lemur

-edit-

Just to get the ball rolling, a certain Gallic mod wrote a thoughtful reply via PM:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

It only barely occurred to me that 'milfy' is not a proper word, but an acronym. To me, its meaning has shifted from an acronym 'Mother I'd Like to F', to simply 'Hot woman over the age 35'.

Likewise, last week when I went diving for the wreck of the Titanic together with James Cameron, and strapped on my scuba gear, I did not even realise that I was using a 'Self-Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus'.

The world needed the word 'milf'. So much so, that I think that in a number of years, MILF will have fully gone the way of RADAR and SCUBA. It will be a proper new word, a new word formed out of an acronym, with modern users however mostly unaware of the origin of the word. So no longer capitalised: milfy, radar, scuba.

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I'm throwing my lot in with my boy.

I have always felt the org has been overly strict on the use of language and it has worsend over the years.

Considering we (theoretically) play a game which is rated T the board should at least have a rating that falls in line with that.

I think it wouldn't do any harm to loosen up either. When it comes to dodgy language probably the intent is most important (are they using it in a malicious way etc) in judging if it's OK.

Let's sum it up as follows: what on earth do you need such crude expressions of your feelings of bewildered amazement for when all you need to say is how sexually attractive you find a certain woman?

I see a few issues:

1) "milf" is not only an acronym for bad language, but also derogatory, sexist and demeaning to the fairer sex.

2) "wtf", also an acronym for bad language, is almost always used in the wrong way, i.e. for trolling, flaming etc. If it's not being used for trolling and flaming, i.e. as an expression of surprise, then there are better alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Considering we (theoretically) play a game which is rated T the board should at least have a rating that falls in line with that.

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I think citing maturity, gives even more reason as to why we should be mature enough to avoid such words/acronyms.

:2cents:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Considering we (theoretically) play a game which is rated T the board should at least have a rating that falls in line with that.

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Tosa has stated multiple times in the past that we are run as a PG13, but in reality nothing outside the backroom should be unsuitable for a 9 year old (from memory)

Of course we don't have to be super strict, but really...

Gameroom instituted a clean ban on all swear words, regardless of level. People refrain from using the word 'hell' which is part of everyday language in Australia ('bloody hell' being as common as 'wow'), along with more unsavoury words, but its not hard to not type it, and I can still express my point just fine.

I don't have anything against WTF, but I don't like milf.

Better off without them.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Better off without them.

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If you've got the time, could you expand on that? I'm hoping to hear people's reasoning, their feelings, etc. And eventually I will have to kick this up to Tosa and such, but first I really want to hear where people are coming from.

Kind of what caravel said. On the org it doesn't make much of a difference because they just pop up once in a while, but on less restricted forums it is very noticeably unpleasant.

I frequent two forums that basically take a polar opposite approach to this issue, the Org and Taleworlds, the original forum for Mount and Blade.

Here, everything's rather stiff. I don't mind it, though sometimes judgment on the part of mods has been more absolute and inflexible that need be, in my opinion. I do get tired of the senseless use of profanity at the other board. But conversely, intelligent and witty use of it makes for some very entertaining exchanges there, which we never approach here. Also, when passionate about a subject, I sometimes use profanity in real life for emphasis or to express that passion poignantly, so I feel like I'm more myself at Taleworlds than here because I'm free to do that. Here, I feel more like I'm in a classroom or at a church meeting, not, say, at a bar having a drink and shooting the daisies with friends.

Recently at Taleworlds, they turned on an optional profanity filter, which ***s out profanity if left on. It was set to be on as default, but could be turned off. I have mine set so I can see the profanity, but those who don't like it can leave it on. I thought this was a pretty good compromise--though many of the hard-core, old-time patrons, who loved Taleworlds for its open expression, left permanently after a heated debate regarding the new filter (one of those who left was a long-time, respected-by-all administrator).

I enjoy frequenting these two sites because they are both gaming forums complete with off-topic areas, but almost polar opposites when it comes to how they are run. It's an interesting contrast, and I enjoy them both.

So I guess my opinion on the matter here is, I don't care. I can go elsewhere if I feel the need to express myself differently, to an audience that doesn't mind.

An interesting fact: active membership and participation at the Talworlds site is much greater than at this site, despite the fact that the Total War games are much better known and more popular than Mount and Blade / Warband. This surprised me when I noticed it. Here we seem to have a lot more lurkers and fewer active participants.

There's a time and place for such language. In front of someone elses youngster or a young lady is neither the time nor the place. Yes, those people can go just about anywhere on teh interweb or elsewhere and find that and much worse, so they don't need to read it here.

Two cents:


I'd prefer no use of 'wtf' and capitalised 'MILF'. They could conceivably be allowed, but with some reluctance.

Small case 'milf' is mostly acceptable - to me it's not an acronym, but a new word. Where 'milf' serves a literary purpose, it could be allowed.



Naturally, I myself would never use such dreadfully common language as 'milf'. I scoff at people who do, and heap scorn on posters whose lack of imagination forces them to resort to the shock value of vulgarities such as 'milfy' to get their point across. :no: :toff:

If the F word is not allowed, concealed versions should not be allowed either.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Naturally, I myself would never use such dreadfully common language as 'milf'. I scoff at people who do, and heap scorn on posters whose lack of imagination forces them to resort to the shock value of vulgarities such as 'milfy' to get their point across. :no: :toff:

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Well not exactly. First there's no particular use that you cannot easily express otherwise (it's not even moderately hard to do). Second it's not polite nor particularly appropriate. And third liberal use of mingled oaths, swearwords, curses, and other expletives quickly gets wearisome. Not unlike some of the animated GIFs or pictures of half naked women people seem fond of using in their forum avatars elsewhere; or for more direct analogy: whatever it is that comes out of the speakers when my brother plays his GTA 4 and failing any semblance of “dialogue”. And then Hooahguy is quite right: if you allow the f there, why not elsewhere and why not other less profane expressions?

Yes when done right a good curse, oath or other expletive can actually improve a bit of informal writing like a forum post. But mostly it tends to do the opposite.

Only 7 year olds use 'WTF' and 'MILF', and they are too young to have access to a 'Teen' rated website. Therefore for their protection, possibly look in temporary banning them for 6 years, till they meet the 'Teen' rating requirement.

Though, in the memorable words of Star Wolf "What the heck?".

I understand why people want the rules on language to be less strict, but I've always been of the opinion that bad language all over the forum generally gives the impression of a less friendly, hostile environment.

Besides, it's not like you can't use other words to express yourself. There's also the general practice to replace swearwords with :daisy:. If someone would post "What the :daisy:", then we all know what that person means anyway.

Then again, context is always very important. A swearword to "color" your post a bit more isn't as bad as using bad language in combination with an insult towards a fellow .Orgah.

I'd say keep the policy as it is. I won't complain if swearing would be allowed, because I don't care that much about it, but I would wholeheartedly support the decision to keep the current policy as it is. There are more than enough fora where you can use as much bad language as you want; the .Org is not one of them and that's just fine by me.

I say that people are free to use whatever word they feel to use...
A word is just a word, and we give weight to it...
If someone has only swears to say, I think that it's bad for him, but he's entitled to have free speech...

I would agree with keeping swear words and these acronyms off limits. Its nice to know that I can come to the .org and not have to read garbage all the time. Think of the .org as a fine dining establishment and other forums as the world's pubs and sports bars.

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Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin

I would agree with keeping swear words and these acronyms off limits. Its nice to know that I can come to the .org and not have to read garbage all the time. Think of the .org as a fine dining establishment and other forums as the world's pubs and sports bars.

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I agree actually, the refreshing thing about the Org is the lack of swearing, along with the whole uniform style with the avatars. Removing those characteristics just makes the Org 'another forum'. The use of language greatly affects peoples opinions of the poster, and if all the posters experience a 'drop in standard', other users will also drop in their standard. You may get a few more members, especially those from a more immature crowd, you but you begin to lose what it is great with the Org.

Some one types: "wtf louis u milfy french frog eater", you instantly begin to characterise that poster as some one who has failed the educational system.

On the otherhand, when some one types: "I dare say, Louis VI the Fat, it appears you overexerted yourself on the mastication of fresh water amphibians." you would naturally have a higher opinion of the poster.

Rather extreme example, but the assumed quality of posting on the forum elicits similar responses. Imagine going to a upper class restaurant for a fine dining experience, you dress in a fine suit, you remember your manners, and you have an enjoyable cultured experience, this is the Org. Then there are other forums where you come across, which are akin to a ran-down pub with leaky smelling toilet, Bert at the bar is drunk, looks like he hasn't showered for 5 weeks and he scratches his nuts, it is definitely not the same experience.

I have no issue with people using WTF as the only time I have seen it being employed is to express moments of disbelief as to what is occurring in a game. As a user of the EB forum I can honestly say I have never seen MILF being employed and can't imagine a scenario in the EB forum where it could be employed.

Coarse language degenerates conversation in my opinion. The subject matter seems to suffer if curse words are used for adjectives and the like. I like the rigid swearing policy, avatar use, etc. that is employed here. It would be kind of funny if people were turned away from the .org because they couldn't swear in thier posts and get rep for semi naked avatar pictures and the like. But back on the topic of bad language, I vote no. Let us continue the trend of behaving like little gentlemen and little gentlewomen when interacting with one another. I for one won't complain.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

a ran-down pub with leaky smelling toilet, Bert at the bar is drunk, looks like he hasn't showered for 5 weeks and he scratches his nuts

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That's so funny when I went to visit him this was EXACTLY what Andres was like

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Originally Posted by Brennus

I have no issue with people using WTF as the only time I have seen it being employed is to express moments of disbelief as to what is occurring in a game. As a user of the EB forum I can honestly say I have never seen MILF being employed and can't imagine a scenario in the EB forum where it could be employed.

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This is exactly what I wanted to say. I've never heard/read MILF on this forum, and I think it's is totally out of place to use.

WTF on the other hand, I don't mind. What's wrong with it? It's a so much used expression that it has become normal. F--- is just a word; in WTF it isn't even related to sexual intercourse. I really don't get what's the hassle about the word f--- in that particular context. If you say c--- (this is an exeption thread, amirite?) for instance I get it, cos it's always pointed toward a person. But WTF is just as Brennus said, an expression of amazement or disbelief.

I don't think the :daisy: will work. Everybody knows what you want to say, so why not just say so? Is it more harmful to have it written than interpret it like that?

The problem of the women and young children who would get exposed to this use of language is out of question. First of all children till the age of 12 (I think) wouldn't come here (then you won't be playing total war as it is probably too difficult). Unless you guys who are older, and have children let them read with you at this forum (highly unlikely). And children older than 9-10 already know the word f---.

Why would women be offended by the term MILF? It's not like they are going to cry when they read it. If a woman would call someone a d---; I won't feel disrespected cos I have a d---. It's not like they're weak and take everything personal.

My opinion is that this forum could loosen up a bit.

I cannot agree more, Beskar. Warman recently posted a thread about elitism. There's no elitism here, but the Org. is most elite of all TW forums or any other forums that deal with the stuff we discuss here.
That's because of discussions that actually make sense, but also because people here use clean and civilised speech instead of WTF or MILF.

We do not want to lose our high standards, do we?

So, NO to all of them. Keep it clean, keep it nice.

I suppose you could see MILF in an AAR. But the mind boggles.

If you don't allow the F word, then you shouldn't allow a hidden version of it. If there is room for bending that rule because of context, then it isn't a proper rule.

You might show leniency in applying the rule, but "no use of swear words except when not directed at any one individual, but rather at the poster's own inability to find an alternative phrase" really muddies the water for when you have to apply that rule.

Oh, and if you use the daisy smiley, then not everyone knows what you meant to say. In particular, small children don't know. So it does work better than simply saying it.

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Originally Posted by Maeran

Oh, and if you use the daisy smiley, then not everyone knows what you meant to say. In particular, small children don't know. So it does work better than simply saying it.

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And how exactly do small children (I assume childrens less than 12 years) come to this forum? Would they read the civilised speech we use here? No an average small child wouldn't read the more sophisticated posts on this forum, it's beyond his limits.

On the matter of children and the org, there's two points:

How many here have younger children? How many of those people want their child to come visit when they're on the computer? Lots, I bet. Children show up frequently and often where you don't want them to; it's a defining feature. Most children begin to read at 5 years old.

Our youngest member was lisabeanie. She was 10 years old when she signed up an account to ask for help beating her Dad at TW. Naturally Dad was a member here too. She was quite active here for a time. There have been others a little older; it's rare but does happen.

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Why would women be offended by the term MILF?

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Better to ask, why wouldn't we?

It reduces a person into an object intended for another's gratification. The f-word has nothing but negative tones in a sexual context, especially when applied to women as it ties into that whole 'easy/slut/whore' thing and the whole 'I don't need to bother about them so long as I get my rocks off' thing.

Not comparable at all with calling someone a dick; that term is so mild it's practically a joke. There is no direct male comparison; culturally and historically men just do not have the same overtones applied to them in a sexual context. The double standard is alive and well.

I won't cry. I will think that whoever used it is a contemptible, crude idiot. Just as I think anyone who wants a f*** should go find themselves a blow up doll (or vibrator, if female) because that's the best they deserve for aiming so low. Huh, at least aim high enough to want sex. At least that has some ambition and mutuality to it, even if it's still a long away from making love. All the different labels exist for a reason; they all have different connotations.

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

I will think that whoever used [milf] is a contemptible, crude idiot.

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Well said. I couldn't agree more.

I say posters who describe women as 'milfy' are immature sex-starved attention seekers. In fact, I think it is perfectly obvious they aren't getting any and plEASE GOD ANYONE IF YOU'RE READING THIS I NEED A GIRLFRIEND I NEED ONE RIGHT NOW ANY WILL DO I CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE

TBH, I'd never heard of the acronym MIFL or the 'term' milfy until I read this thread. Knowing now what the acronym stands for, I'm surprised that anyone here would advocate/need to inquire about it's open use on this forum. Must be a Backroom thing?

Moderators at their discretion can always overlook expressions when the context is judged (by them) to be acceptable. I don't think a policy change is justified, but that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Arjos

If someone has only swears to say, I think that it's bad for him, but he's entitled to have free speech...

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The org is not America, we are not entitled to free speech.