Rise of the Attalids...do-over

So, after CTDs and indecisiveness, ive managed to restart a pontic Pergamon campaign.

Why Pontos? Simply fit better. After tweaking some game files, you can barely tell that it’s an “eastern” faction, other than images and bodyguards. Their victory conditions fit where Pergamon would have expanded to had they not been bequeathed to the Romans. Pontos, like Pergamon, was still very Hellenic, so as to simulate the mixing of ethnicities in Asia Minor, Pontos worked better for me. Also, should expansion increase, I would be able to at least have ONE homeland where I can train elite troops, and close enough to Pergamon (Nikaia)…So without further ado, here goes….

Beginnings
A History:

With the death of Antigonus at Ipsus in 301, the vast territory of Asia Minor, with the exceptions of Bithynia and Pontus, came under the Possession of Lysimachus, King of Thrace. During Lysimachus’s campaigns, he entrusted the stronghold of Pergamon to Philetaerus, including its 9000 talents. After some time however, by 282 Philetaerus openly revolted against Lysimachus, offering his aid to Seleucus. This would prove a wise move, as Lysimachus fell at Corupedium. Under Philetaerus, Pergamon began minting coins with the image of Seleucus, with the name of Philetaerus. It was as such that Pergamon became a major player in western Anatolia. He also donated generously to his neighbors and also even Delphi. It would not be until 262 that Eumenes and the Pergamenes would make a grand entrance on the side of the Ptolemies.


Current in Game situation, 270BC
https://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5748/pergamon.png
Pergamon is still its own city-state, at peace with all neighbors at this time. Rather than expanding with the cities shown on the map, ive decided to implement forts as a way of portraying cities within a region, and each major city the capital of the region. While for the observer this may prove hard to follow, I will keep track of all cities and their locations on the map as forts. The minor cities will not have governors usually, until I can create a type IV somewhere, but will always have a modest garrison. My rationale behind this is if it is to be attacked, it is not expected to hold out long or even succeed, but rather will ask for the aid of Pergamon itself in these situations. As of now, there are two significant garrison-cities…Thyatira on the bridged-river border between Lydia and Mysia, and Troas at the Hellespont. These fulfill my desire to have semi-defended borders, a way of preventing the AI from too aggressively expanding and instantly besieging Pergamon, and also my personl taste of wishing there could be more cities on the map (ive got a thing for Ephesus hehe)

by 265 BC

With the world in a state of war, the Pergamenes, through wise leadership, have remained at peace with every local power. Envoys from Pergamon have been to Rome, Athens, and Antioch, making peace and trade with all the major powers. Rome in particular took to the Pergamenes with great interest. Signing an alliance with Rome, Pergamon took another step in securing Roman friendship with a gift of 10,000 mnai. With the help of this money, Rome would go about securing Segesta and lay siege to Taras within the year. However, the Attalids, safe in Pergamon, were not to be surprised. Noticing a sharp increase in Seleukid power in the area, they dispatched a diplomat to the city-state of Nikaia. Nikaia, known for its wealth, would easily be the next stop for the rampaging Seleukid armies. Sending a small force of citizen hoplitai, galatian mercenaries, and mercenary cavalry, the city was taken with minimal resistance, and mines were immediately order to be built. However in 267, the Seleukids envoys demanded over 10,000 mnai to keep their armies out of Mysia. But our great king did not even consider such an offer. Pergamon would be defended by its people regardless of the host. Its great walls just finished, the people were confident. Meanwhile, with the Seleukid armies massing across the Hermos River, the Pergamenes took defensive actions by sending a force to their allies in Ephesus. But whether or not Pergamon will remain a safe city is yet to be seen..the Seleukid power is growing, and its borders expanding…Seleukia will be looking to the lands once belonging to Lysimachos to pay tribute to its coffers…
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/...01015at906.png
the situation in Mysia at 265...the Ephesian-Pergamene army is poised to strike, but Seleukid armies are growing outside Sardis.

https://img823.imageshack.us/img823/...01015at806.png
the outrageous demands by the Seleukid envoys...quickly rejected and a declaration of war soon followed.

with the first decade nearly in the books, the next chapter will be in ONE part this time:2thumbsup:

its topic most likely...the Seleukid-Pergamene war in western Asia Minor

Nice, but growing very fast. Are you planning to play many turns behind the scenes in order to more realistically show your expansion? For example it might take a few generations to unify asia minor and fully control each city. Otherwise you are just playing a HOI 3 germany relocation AAR with the blitzkreig.

Also, you touched briefly upon the political elements there. Would you consider expanding more with that and with other countries around the world to more fully immerse the reader or is this going to be a 'lite' AAR?

Yes, I'd agree that's a pretty fast growth. I was going at the rate of about one settlement every 5 years or so, and it was ages before I went to war with the Seleukids or Ptolemies.

I agree, im expanding faster than i would like. However, im not using FD so had to neutralize the Seleucids before it became stack after stack of elites. But yes, at this point, i am planning on spending many turns simply micromanaging and building a more "civic" background. So yes, there will be much more depth soon, i just wanted to get this out. I have a good bulk written that im just touching up and figuring out where to put it, since i dont really want to take the reader backwards. In other words, any conflict is going to be between outsider sources, as i will be spending my time building an economy. Expansion wasnt militarily until Bithynia and Ipsos, and i was losing money...fast, even with disbanded armies.

But, much appreciation for the feedback, and its definatley being taken into consideration :smile:

EDIT: After checking my book on Pergamon...im WAAAAAAAY AHEAD of schedule. At the very most, i should not have even gained possetion of Mytilene until at least 260. Fixing, and replacing the AAR with a very breif history of Pergamon just before game-time.

What book do you have on Pergamon? I've seen very little as far as internet resources go, I'm guessing most stuff is still in dead tree.

The Attalids of Pergamon by Esther V Hansen. Its old, but its the most comprehensive book on the Attalids that ive found, as the only internet stuff i seem to find is coinage or on the city itself...the book covers the major rulers, art, construction projects, military...all sorts...to be historical, Galatians probably werent fielded heavily in the Pergamene armies until around 182 (subjugation of Gaul..in asia), and thracians in 211 after Attalus formed an alliance with the Aetolian league. Also, as proof of vast seige engine usage, there was 894 cannonballs made of red andesite found piled up outside the buildings of various sizes, leading to heavy usage of stone-hurling machines.

Prologue to Attalus: The First War

By 265, the Seleukids had ceased all attempts at negotiations. The rulers in Pergamon knew that conflict was brewing, and sent for aid. However none would come. The Makedonians were embroiled in a 2 front war, the Hellenes were also involved in that war against Makedon, Rome, a staunch ally and friend to the Pergamenes was involved in civil disputes between the Senate and nearby provinces. Pergamon was on its own. In the spring of 264, after the rivers had thawed and the water rushed from the mountains, Pharnakes Kimmerikos moved his army from the sanctuary of Ephesus up the Hermos. It was there, just downriver of Sardis, that the Seleukid army attacked. Led by Noumenios Lydikos and Archelaos Addidas Nabataeike, both solid and confident generals, the numbers were even. Roughly 1900 Seleukid against 1700 Pergamene, Ephesian, Galatians, Thraikans, and some Kretans.
https://img580.imageshack.us/img580/...ostilities.png

The Pergamene alliance deployed itself in a variant of an Alexandrian formation. Thracian peltasts covered the left flank of the line, followed to their right by 2 Lochai (100-500 men each, also sometimes used as a term for a single file within the phalanx) of phalangites from Ephesus. On the right end of the line formed the hardy men of Pergamon, counted on to hold their ground amongst all adversity (some say that the Pergamenes used only mercenaries, but the Pergamene citizenry was well trained and well armed and well disciplined…more so than their mercenary or allied counterparts). Somewhat detached on the right were the Cretan archers..not expected to hold the line but to rain arrows into the Seleukid sides. On the right wing were the allied Thracian and Ephesian cavalry, on the left, heavy Pergamene cavalry. Behind the lines Galatians were prepared to be let loose into the ensuing fray, eager to spill blood of whom ever, and to accept gold for it.
https://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3434/pergamenes.png

The Seleukids advanced with haste, and much to their undoing. The brave, yet foolhardy Strategos Noumenios advanced with his cavalry far ahead of the main Seleukid line. Being peppered by flaming arrows, the horses of Antioch remained calm, and charged the line. They crashed into the Pergamene and Ephesian phalanx, to a very quick end, but nonetheless due to training and arms, managed to fight on even amidst a sea of spears.
https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/...ndhoplites.png

Noumenios was killed, and even the stoutest Pergamenes shirked from their steadfast discipline, and pursued slightly.
https://img100.imageshack.us/img100/...ofageneral.png

It was then that the Seleukid main line appeared rounding the slight hill. After forming into a standard line, they marched towards the reformed and eager Pergamene line. But they fought like cowards. Peppering our phalanxes with javelins and arrows, and assaulting from the woods on the left flank, they at once sprung into action. If not for the bravery and fiercness of the Thraikens, the line may have been rolled. But the flanks held fast, and the initial charge by Pandopoi could not penetrate the better armed Ephesian phalanx.

https://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7042/outclassed.png

after quickly routing the levys, things began to becoming chaotic. The phalanx, after routing the levys, slowly advanced under orders to engage a Seleukid lochos, only to expose the right flank and the Pergamenes to two more Lochoi of Seleukid pikes. It was then that the Ephesian allies broke under the pressure of multiple Seleukid forces. However, it was not a complete route, as at the right time, the Galatians and Pergamenes smashed into the Seleukid right flank, as shortly after Pharnakes and his bodyguard hit their left. What ensued was a complete route, as Seleukid soldiers ran from Thraikan and Galatian swords. Barbarians, while fine and fierce soldiers, do not respect Hellenic rules of war. They chased any survivors down that they could find, cleaving them from behind and bathing in their blood as they ran. Such is war.

https://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7171/runf.png

With the victory at Sardis, Seleukid power in Lydia was broken. Following the battle, peace was made…for the time being…
https://img831.imageshack.us/img831/...ryatsardis.png


Demands:https://img715.imageshack.us/img715/...eleukidwar.png they were met suprisingly...without FD

the World, 263:
https://img714.imageshack.us/img714/...heworld263.png

https://img806.imageshack.us/img806/3411/aegean263.png


It'll get more detailed once Attalus comes along..but until then, more coming, most likely a more continuous war, but for now, Seleukid power is checked and its time to disband and refinance...so until next time:ave:

Nice. Not normally a fan of EB AAR's but happy to see where this goes. I do have a soft spot for pergamon ever since playing them in EU: Rome. (and kick arse I might add =P)

I often try to get a ceasefire on good terms for me before trying a basic FD'd ceasefire and trade rights only if they refuse. Sometimes surprised when they accept the first time around, but that's one of the benefits of using medium campaign difficulty. Periods of peace are good for everyone - trade income for you and the AI and time for them to rebuild and field proper armies when it all kicks off again.

What happened to all your money?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

What happened to all your money?

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Nikaia wasnt developed yet, and i had to build up my army. Unfortunately, quality mercs cost a bit, so i had to run myself into debt, but now its getting back up after i disbanded them

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AspisPhalanx90

Nikaia wasnt developed yet, and i had to build up my army. Unfortunately, quality mercs cost a bit, so i had to run myself into debt, but now its getting back up after i disbanded them

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Realistically accurate. I like the boom and bust style of war. Maybe not the most effective with anything total war because of evil AI but nice to see you are managing it.

well, Luckily i havnt been harrassed too much yet. Hopefully, ill have a solid income by the time the full armies come at me, so now its either continue against AS or take Karia from the Ptolemaioi...hmm

Die ptolemy scum!!!

They will turn on you eventually and maybe breaking the land border will allow the ai to take a break on you so you can trade across the mediteranean with them? Although the towns are small and underdeveloped at first. Depends if you want to roleplay politics more and 'find' a valid casus-belli. Maybe their 5th cousin looked at your wife the wrong way during a state dinner and now they must pay with land?

maybe not....

From your source, AspisPhalanx90, roughly how and when did Pergamon expand? You mentioned Thracians after 211BC and Gauls after 182BC, in terms of EB's map where did they go and when?

at its Height under i believe Attalus, they held all of western Asia Minor i believe. It didnt explicitly say, but they were also eventually given back (by the romans) all Seleukid territories west of the Taurus mountains. I believe Halikarnassos and Karia was under Rhodian control as well, according to the text. Unfortunately, theres a lack of evidence to be more specific. So id fortifiy the Hellespont on the Asian side, capture sardis and Ipsos, and MAYBE mytilene. unfortunately the territory gained in the Macedonian wars are islands not able to be taken in EB, so you could in a sense take Chalkis, as according to the text there was a Pergamene and Roman force that attempted to take it. Other than that, its hard to say.


And Blxz, my "cassus-belli" is going to be the cities of Miletus, Halikarnassos, and karia wishing to be rid of Ptolemaic influence...idk, still working on when and how im going to do that hehe

Anything about Thracian lands on the other side of the Hellespont? Did they manage to recapture anything that Lysimachos had once held?

In my game KH are in the process of being wiped out in Greece. They've carved out the Bosphorous and I've given them Paphlagonia and Kappodokia. Wondering when they've only got Rhodes of their original holdings left whether to take it and remove them entirely from the Aegean, or to leave them with only Rhodes since there was a viable little kingdom there for a long time (and maybe the Bosphorous, depending on whether I feel like evicting them and holding it). I must admit the temptation of holding Rhodes is very strong.

nothing on the European side...im gonna keep looking, but it looks as though theres very little physical evidence to help. Best i can say right now is even tho its not historical based on game terms, you could move into that side and make allied states, as im sure many tribes were allied with the Attalids. Rhodes im not sure what to say about lol...id leave them, maybe make an alliance and trade with them.

Im in the process of multiple games now haha...ive got my Pergamene game as my #1, a greek city-states one involving Syracuse, Massalia, and Sardis (Ephesus), all other lands are gone, so each state is on its own, and a Roman game where all historically allied provinces are going to retain their soverignty and act independantyl (although under my control) until the time of the Empire. I know i know its alot, but i get bored with one region all the time lol...although a plus, im developing a pretty deep story for my Pergamene game...ahh the things i shouldnt be doing while in class...oops

That's the thing, while I want Rhodos, I could leave it as their guaranteed territory just in case I forget about them too long and they're wiped out in the Bosphorous and Asia Minor. I'm half-tempted to give them Karia and Lydia, which I believe Rhodes controlled, though they could then become annoying unless I made them my protectorate. I should probably do that anyway, once they've been kicked out of Greece. Gives me a good excuse then to get involved in their wars.

Should be careful about running multiple (different faction) games at once. I think there was something about potential bugs cropping up from jumping between them.

Lydia was Pergamene controlled eventually, so unless your going to take it bakc, dont bother giving it to the KH.

And its more like one time i load up the game, i play my Pergamene game, the next time i load it up, i play rome, etc etc.

Pergamon eventually gained control over the Gallipoli peninsula and a few surrounding territories. Rhodos would be a stretch, though, at least if the rising roman influence is part of your roleplaying background. Both were independent long-time allies of Rome and most probably had no reason nor desire to risk the goodwill of their most important benefactor. I believe Rhodos finally lost its (at least formal) independence as late as the civil wars at the end of the republic (so almost a century after Pergamon, which was bequeathed to the republic in 133).

aand, im going to have to bring this one to an abrupt end. Game got corrupted and no backups =/. So goodluck to Quintus on your AARs, ill eventually start up a new one, but im in the process of Midterm exams and working on revamping the KH to give them more of a city-state feel to them (a different league perhaps, or something, rather than the Sparta, Rhodes, Athens)...essentially just a starting cities modification, since any of the cities i want to add are already considered "rebel". Anyway, if anyone needs any information on Pergamon, id be more than happy to check my book or the Library. til next time...hopefully wont break the save files again..=)

EDIT: So finally, after hours of wondering why my campaign kept reverting to the single player screen, ive managed to edit the map slightly...verrrrry slightly.
Ive renamed and moved Sardis to the coast naming it Ephesus, and renamed Halikarnassos, Miletus. I feel like Ephesos and Miletos are much more prominent, especially Ephesos, for my greek-based games.

Are you able to continue from this thread rather than start a new one? I have trouble keeping up with lots of new threads and would have to go to ALL the trouble (i'm lazy) of deleting this page as a favourite and saving the new one. =)

As for QuintusSertonius, I have ntoiced that if KH loses Rhodes they tend to become more powerful; it seems that they spend less effort maintaining and garriosoning the island and instead use it for expanding and fighting elsewhere. Sure Rhodes is wealthy but with a money script that wealth only matters to human players. If you want the KH to fight and expand elsewhere it might be worth considering the gifting of overseas land like you thought up in the Bosporus area and taking Rhodes for yourself. They might survive and thrive to the north if they focus their effort on one region.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blxz

Are you able to continue from this thread rather than start a new one? I have trouble keeping up with lots of new threads and would have to go to ALL the trouble (i'm lazy) of deleting this page as a favourite and saving the new one. =)

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Ill keep the thread, maybe figure out a transition story...some pergamene issues, joined the {insert city state league name here lol}, and went from there. Ill figure something out, i dont like making too many threads either =P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blxz

As for QuintusSertonius, I have ntoiced that if KH loses Rhodes they tend to become more powerful; it seems that they spend less effort maintaining and garriosoning the island and instead use it for expanding and fighting elsewhere. Sure Rhodes is wealthy but with a money script that wealth only matters to human players. If you want the KH to fight and expand elsewhere it might be worth considering the gifting of overseas land like you thought up in the Bosporus area and taking Rhodes for yourself. They might survive and thrive to the north if they focus their effort on one region.

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Right now they've got the Bosphorous (which they got all by themselves) and Sinope and Mazaka (which I gave to them after taking them off Pontos). If it comes to it, I could always give them back Rhodes if they're looking in danger of being wiped out.

EDIT: Hmmm, their Faction Leader, Faction Heir and three other FMs (possibly all the FMs they have) are sitting in Rhodes. If I tried to take it by force, I'm fairly certain it would CTD the game. I could always FD it off them, then give it back again when I'd moved their FMs somewhere else.

Id be careful with that, that definately looks like a CTD waiting to happen lol

So, i started a Koinon campaign, and tried to make it as much of a koinon as possible...and its rough financially.

Heres where i was early on...
https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/...arhodeskre.png

Athens held out for a year or two, but eventually fell to a full stack of Makedonians. Cheremondias (sp) was evacuated to rhodes before the city fell.
With my faction leader (i forgot his name), a Lochogos, leading a pretty large Lochos, took krete and added another island to the league. However, its pretty much a pain..each city is virtually on its own.



This is where i finished last, after a good decade.
https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/...kleague253.png

Basically reformed the Achean leage, and the Aetolian League...into one big League lol...with Thermon being "rescued" by a Spartan Lochos, and Miletos joining the league in Ionia, rebelled from Ptolemaic rule. Corinth, undefended, fell rather easily to the spartan army that had entered Thermon, and now financially in some trouble. Makedon is regrouping, and the race is on for Athens...to leave it, or try and take it before ending the war? Questionsssss.


So yea...all i got so far...but i did get Greek Leadership working for the KH thus far! woo (probably works for other "greek" cultures, but only KH has traits to start with atm)

What do the traits look like?
Also, that looks like a pretty good beginning, but go for Athens! Big trade bonuses and a nice solid front to defend.

Also, what did you modify and how? You know, in case I want to try this sometime, or something :sweatdrop:

well for traits theres Dekarchos, Lochagos, Polemarchos, and Strategos-Polemarchos. basic military units . Lochargos's gain the ancillary Greek I Lochagos, Greek II Lochagos, etc. Then once the character gets 20years military service, (also a trait), he gets the ancillary Greek I Mora. it basically progresses upwards from there. More info on it can be found here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50109

I also modded KH to start with Syracuse in descr_strat, and used an image editor to edit the location of Sardis on the map. From there, changed the names in all related files INCLUDING campaign script, otherwise you wont get the homeland, expansion, allied, region markers.

Kinda complicated, but not really. Once i get it all smoothed out ill upload certain files.