Ramblings of a historical freak

I have studied Japanese history now more or less for around 15 years as an hobby and i thought of listing out minor details in the work in progress of S2TW, that are historically erranous and i think could be quite easily fixed.

Metsuke

A fine name for an agent, but not for Sengoku Jidai period. Metsuke were covenment officials during the Tokugawa Shogunate. Their task was to look for and report of any maladministration, corruption or disaffection in the Bakufu government. So they were inspectors rather then spies.

More suitable name for spy would be for example shinobi or kusa.

Geisha

Geisha were entertainers while the term "Geisha" in the first place came to popular use on in 19th century. If there is a need for an female assasin, a proper name for one would be Kunoichi.

I will not go into commenting units, before we will have more information concerning them. I think these two for example could be changed quite easily with some work on the text files.

If you see other historical errors or would like to comment, feel free to do so, but this thread is not for CA bashing and any such acts will be dealt swiftly.:bow:

I don't know why Geisha are used as assassination pieces. I think they should be used as the were in history in game as some RPG element builder or such. I don't know how, but I have bad memories of Geisha from STW and I really don't want to revisit them. Keep in mind I have not SJ historical understanding at all!

Kunoichi were purported to be masters (mistresses?) of deception (heh, but then again, aren't all females? Oops ... nvm). One can reason that a geisha would be a favorite and most effective masquerade for the female spy/assassin .... I just think of TW's "geisha" as a kunoichi in disguise, and it fixes the problem for me. They are not what they seem--oh so Japanese.

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Originally Posted by Togakure

Kunoichi were purported to be masters (mistresses?) of deception (heh, but then again, aren't all females? Oops ... nvm). One can reason that a geisha would be a favorite and most effective masquerade for the female spy/assassin .... I just think of TW's "geisha" as a kunoichi in disguise, and it fixes the problem for me. They are not what they seem--oh so Japanese.

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Thats what i have been doing as well inside my head, but Kunoichi would be a solid name for all to get familiar with.:hairpin3:

I think what your saying about shinobi makes a lot of sense, after all the word shinobi is known to almost everyone. Ive no idea what a metsuke was before this thread and i wouldent even want to learn if its "fake" history. |In a way its funny about these 2 units one uses the more well known name geisha while the other uses the less common name metuske instead of shinobi - doesent make sense to me that one would use the more commonly known name thats less accurate and one would avoid the commonly known name which is accurate! :o But then again we know CA make design decisions while listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8vINCq_IAI sorry had to have some light CA bash since u brought it up :)

Since theres going to be lots of historical peeps in this thread ive heard ca mention that factions will get CANNONS SIGH! how accurate is this to the time period? i can already feel my sore fingers typing in no artillery when people join to ask the rules only to watch them leave then get ready to type it for the next peep! please oh please give me a copy paste in the setup screen! Its really painful to run a 4v4 with rules i may have to type 20? times those rules please tell me the talk of cannons is nonsence so i have less to type each game i host!

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Originally Posted by Swoosh So

I think what your saying about shinobi makes a lot of sense, after all the word shinobi is known to almost everyone. Ive no idea what a metsuke was before this thread and i wouldent even want to learn if its "fake" history. |In a way its funny about these 2 units one uses the more well known name geisha while the other uses the less common name metuske instead of shinobi - doesent make sense to me that one would use the more commonly known name thats less accurate and one would avoid the commonly known name which is accurate! :o But then again we know CA make design decisions while listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8vINCq_IAI sorry had to have some light CA bash since u brought it up :)

Since theres going to be lots of historical peeps in this thread ive heard ca mention that factions will get CANNONS SIGH! how accurate is this to the time period? i can already feel my sore fingers typing in no artillery when people join to ask the rules only to watch them leave then get ready to type it for the next peep! please oh please give me a copy paste in the setup screen! Its really painful to run a 4v4 with rules i may have to type 20? times those rules please tell me the talk of cannons is nonsence so i have less to type each game i host!

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About the cannons. There was some cannon use in Sengoku period Japan. Some daimyos like for example Otomo Sorin got hold off Portuguese cannon, bought from their trade vessels. Otomo had atleast one called kuzurikuni/ destroyer of provinces.
During the siege of Nagashino, which lead to the famous battle, where Oda and Tokugawa gained a decisive victory over Takeda clan. The Tokugawa defenders of the Nagashino castle had a cannon.

The main castle of Hojo hosted number of cannons, but those did not help when Toytomi Hideyoshi defeated the Odawara Hojo, with his huge siege army.Near the end of the era at the climatic battle of Sekigahara between the Western army commanded by Ishida Mitsunari and Eastern army lead by Tokugawa Ieyasu, both sides apparently fielded some cannons in the battle. Also at the winter and summer sieges of Osaka castle that marked the downfall of Toyotomi Clan as the last final thorn on the side of the Tokugawa Shogunate. The Shogunal army hosted quite large attachment of siege artillery, while Osaka castle still apparently had only old traction Trebuchets.

To make matters more complicated. Japanese armies used very large caliber teppo muskets, so called wall guns. In many cases it is almost impossible to know if the "guns" were indeed actual cannons or oversized muskets as the largest teppo calibers went up to 100 monme (48mm, or nearly 2 inches in diameter).

So it can be said that cannon, both European and domestic design was used in Japan during the period, but at pretty low frequency compared to use of teppo arquebus, which interestingly itself translates as Teppō (鉄砲, ”iron cannon”). I hope this basic information was helpfull.:bow:

Yes very informative but also i feel like being at school my teacher just gave me lines again!

No art! No art No art! No art! No art! No art! No art!
No art! No art No art! No art! No art! No art! No art!
No art! No art No art! No art! No art! No art! No art!

I remember watching a documentry when a samurai general fired his cannon at another general that wouldent join the battle and it caused him to actually join in :) or maybe it was a movie :p

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Originally Posted by Swoosh So

Yes very informative but also i feel like being at school my teacher just gave me lines again!

No art! No art No art! No art! No art! No art! No art!
No art! No art No art! No art! No art! No art! No art!
No art! No art No art! No art! No art! No art! No art!

I remember watching a documentry when a samurai general fired his cannon at another general that wouldent join the battle and it caused him to actually join in :) or maybe it was a movie :p

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I bet that was a scene from the battle of Sekigahara. Where it was said that the Eastern army´s commander and future Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu made his point clear to a certain commander of Western army called Kobayakawa Hideaki, who had promised to switch sides during the battle, but was hesitating. Ieyasu ordered "cannons" to be fired at Kobayakawa´s position and that apparently provoked him to remember his earlier promises, by attacking the flank of one of his Western allied commander and thus turning the tide of the battle in favour of the Eastern army. I used " " with the cannons as it has been debated were the Tokugawa "cannons", indeed cannons or "wall guns". Such complex these "cannon" affairs are.:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Swoosh So

Yes very informative but also i feel like being at school my teacher just gave me lines again!

No art! No art No art! No art! No art! No art! No art!
No art! No art No art! No art! No art! No art! No art!
No art! No art No art! No art! No art! No art! No art!

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Hasn't CA been telling us at every turn that S2TW is going to be an art based game? :laugh4:

Hi there

Couple of things

The Geisha are Kunoichi - This was a decision where we felt that more folks could i.d the Geisha name than Kunoichi.
Metsuke - We felt that we didn't want people getting confused with Ninja which were also refered to as Shinobi.

These decisions can be argued and debated for a long time. I know we certainly did.

As for cannons in the Single player game they are a benefit of trading with the Nanban. You might get them if you invest enough in learning how to build them yourself.

Intrepid

Thanks Intrepid Sidekick for sharing with us the views of the development team!:bow: I was sure that there were reasons for these things and with consultation of Stehen Turnbull, the team must have been aware about these issues and the decisions mush have not been very easy.


About the cannons. Can you reveal could there be any chance of the so called "wall guns" entering the game? The use of the large caliber teppo most likely even surpassed the use of actual cannons as plaster wall and gate breaking instruments, maybe there could be a small unit handling them for siege use?

Would be interesting to know if cannons are available in multiplayer too?

I think my chief concern is that, in terms of playability at least, you aren't handicapped too much for not "westernising", I want the choice to have downfalls to prevent it being a essential choice to go down the route of embracing European technology but kept as a choice that has pros and cons for both sides.

Im sure they will make both paths around the same strength just with different flavours.

European influence on Japan was invited by the Japnanese, and mainly portugese missionaries made land fall, and other than a religous reasons, the muskets found there way into japanese hands. Artilery wasnt an issue. after japan ran out the christian missionarys they were isolated to the rest of the world except for the dutch for trading, untill the americans forced a treaty on the japanese in 1854, and by gunpoint! :)

I for one think art will be a bit ignored in MP as the previous titles before EMP/NAP. YaY for that, cause its fun with NO Art rules :P

gahhh, sorry for mispells. it happens without a edit option :P but really japanese were themeselves untill they were modernized, and hec, if it werent for them being modern, the rest of the world would NOT have the awesome gadgets that everyone loves today, they are extreme in technology more so than anyone else. thank god for the minds of the japanese!!!

oh and about geishas, what perfect place than a whore house to instrument assassinations!. men of high importance, and low importance stilll practiced showing up at those places. It was that perfect murder where men would be most subdued by a womens touch. those assissans were smart! plus im sure the geishas kept their mouths shut! when dealt a threat or money agreement, the better bribe the faster out of their (geisha) predicament. im sure geishas themeselves acted in assassination, and again freedom and money with it. Third, geishas through history before modern times, were slaves, or women not really wanting to be there in the 1st place, ( the majority, some voluntered)