Script files - can we collect our knowledge?

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01-17-2003, 01:30
Wellington

Hi Guys,

A long post (apologies) but also a few thoughts regarding Script files (ie: Early.txt/High.txt/Late.txt) in MTW. The intention of this post is to extract info, maybe over time, that relates to Script modding.

As many of us know, producing any new mod will involve many changes to a Script file, whether or not you are -

- basing your mod on the existing MTW Campaign map
- providing a different Campaign map for your mod (with all of the inherent considerations)

I suspect any individual who has attempted such modding will have a lot of work/clarification/amendment/adjustment in this area pertaining to providing a good/correct 'Script' for your mod.

This post is intended to extract such ideas/thoughts/suspicions/facts from anyone who has anything to offer in this area of MTW modding. The idea being that MAYBE if we can collect enough info from patrons in this group we just may be able to create some sort of 'Advanced Scripting Guide' and 'Script validation program' that would incorporate the 'rules' implicit in Script modding.

Ok, I hear you say "We already have a few guides that explain the various keywords and parameters in Scdrpt files. What are you talking about?"

Yes, I know ... BUT we have very little in terms of knowledge pertaining to inter-relationships between -

a) the various parts (different keywords/parmeterss and the implications of such) in the Script file
b) the Script keywords and the "internal working of" the MTW engine in respect of these Script keywords

So, exactly what are these 'rules' pertaining to Script files? That's precisely what this post is intending to ascertain

Previous work by modders
========================

Whether or not you've experienced problems in this area the 3 questions to be asked are really -

1) WHAT is your mod trying to do/achieve in respect of changing keywords/parameters in the Script file for your mod?
2) Is whatever your mod is attempting to achieve POSSIBLE in terms of how the MTW engine deals with a Campaign game - in other words - how much of what you've defined in your Script for your mod actually works correctly woth the MYW engine?
3) Have any of the MTW engine's hard-coded facets foiled/fooled you - insomuch that certain MTW 'hard coded things' will ALWAYS manifest themselves - REGARDLESS of 1) and 2) above?

Now, there are many modders in this forum (whether they are 'regular' posters or not) who have had a lot of success in modding these Script files. Consequently, such modders have undoubtadly also experienced a lot of 'trial and error' in debugging their Scripts and have learned a thing or two along the way. Such modders have probably a good idea, from their own experiences, of what is a yes-yes and what is a no-no in terms of writing Scripts.

At present this little group of ours has no 'guidelines' for modding such Scripts WHEN THEY GO WRONG. However, considering the number of new Scripts that have been written for new mod's I'm sure many of us have thoughts/ideas/facts pertaining to what we can or cannot do in terms of writing such Scripts, and also how to correct or avoid certain problems.

What ARE the rules?
===================

Many of us who have attempted modding of Scripts, whether successful or not, must have some thoughts on the inherent problems associated with such modding. However valid these thoughts are, whether they are suspicions/facts/observations - all such knowledge may well be useful. To my mind, many considerations of Script modding are still unknown ... for example -

- is it necessary to ALWAYS have 2 'opposite' cultures (ie: Christian/Islamic, Christian/Orthadox, Orthadox/Islamic OR can we define a mod with just 1 culture for all/most factions?
- do we ALWAYS require a/the Pagan faction?
- do we ALWAYS require the Golden Horde to appear?
- on changed MTW campaign maps, where exactly will the Golden Horder appear?
- is the appearence of the GoldenHorder related to the MTW regions id's?
- is the Pope faction ALWAYS required
- what happens if we have do Christian factions BUT none of these factions are 'Crusader' type factions (like the Danes)?
- do we require a minimum number of Sea regions to be defined?
- do we require a minimum number of Land regions to be defined?
- what is the minimum number of factions we can define?
- what is the minimum number of cultures we can define?
- if we MUST have the Pope defined, and put him on an island with no sea port defined for that Land region - what happens if some faction invades and kills the Pope? Will the Papla faction always re-generated in other 'strange' regions?
- What happens if we define 2 adjacent provinces with different characteristics that do not appear to be supported in the present Scripts? (there are 100 other questions relating to this one&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

There are SO many other things we just don't know (as a group) but some of you guy's may well know them.

Whats the Purpose
=================

Well, I'm currently doing something that is very closely related to Script type files. I would really like to have a better idea of the various yes-yes/no-no's that other people have ascertaned via their work in Script modding.

I'm currently involved in writing a utility and I really don't know what all of the do's and dont's are in respect to Script files. Therefore this utility can do so much but really DOES'NT have ALL the info required for automatically generating Script files. However, if I get enough feedback from this post I can do 3 things -

1) provide a better utility, in terms of accuracy
2) maybe, in time, provide a write-up/document pertaining to "Script modding" - not in terms of what any keyword/paramter does but in respect of the inter-relationships between both -
a) different keywords in any one Script
b) the Script parameters and the MTW engine considerations for the campaign game
3) start writing a new utility "ScriptValidator" that will try to validate any modders Script

My main hope/asperation would be 3) - BUT such an aspiration could only be realised IF enough good info is provided to this thread.

Many of you guys have knowledge. If we can collect all this knowledge and put it all together then I'm prepared to build such knowledge into a "ScriptValidator" type utility. Such a utility would probably have to be amended/updated/corrected for a while as we all learn more and ascertain the REAL IMPORTANT do's and dont's of Script modding. However ... anything is better than nothing.

Conclusion
==========

If we can collect enough info regarding "Script rules" we can do two things -

- provide a guide/document pertaining to "Scripting Rules" (ie: not what the various keywords/parameters in a Script actually MEAN but rather detailing the inter-relationships between some keywords/parameters and what potential effects/problems should be considered for anyone modding in this area&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

- probably produce a program/utility/tool that incorporates all of the rulesd/ideas gleaned from all of you modders who have been through this process of Script modding.

Is this necessary? Is this important? Will the ideas in this thread just turn out to be a lot more 'hogwash'?

I think not. If I can extract/ascertain enough info I really think we can produce another utility "ScriptValidator" which would tend to make ALL of our modding endeavours a bit easier. Ok, maybe such a utility would be constantly changing (a case of incorporating rules as and when we are sure of them&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif but surely ...

.. anythings better than nothing. Or not?

After all, this IS a modders group This IS what we are all interested in hobby-wise. If we can make it a bit easier for ourselves, and for new patrons, then why not?

If you have any info pertainng to modding Script files (especially in terms of no-no's and yes-yes's) then let's hear them

regards,
Welly.
01-17-2003, 04:47
MR EGG

Hello welly
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
First off no matter how many factions you may have you must have the papists involved otherwise it CTD'S after first turn.(hard code i believe)

2nd All border info ie:SetBorderInfo:: ID_LORRAINE ID_BOHEMIA 17400 9672 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND FLT2HLL NO_RIVER
must match SetBorderInfo:: ID_BOHEMIA ID_LORRAINE 11088 10976 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND HLL2FLT NO_RIVER

3rd:SET NEIGHBOURS must be written in exactly the same order as SET border info
SetNeighbours:: ID_SCOTLAND ID_NORTH_UMBRIA ID_IRELAND ID_BRITTANY ID_ENGLISH_CHANNEL ID_BAY_OF_BISCAY

SetBorderInfo:: ID_NORTH_UMBRIA ID_SCOTLAND 7480 4496 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND FLAT NO_RIVER
SetBorderInfo:: ID_IRELAND ID_SCOTLAND 8152 2672 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND FLAT NO_RIVER
SetBorderInfo:: ID_BRITTANY ID_SCOTLAND 7520 1728 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN HLL2FLT NO_RIVER
SetBorderInfo:: ID_ENGLISH_CHANNEL ID_SCOTLAND 6552 4656 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN COAST FLAT NO_RIVER
SetBorderInfo:: ID_BAY_OF_BISCAY ID_SCOTLAND 7880 5864 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN COAST FLAT NO_RIVER

You probably all knew this anyway but its got my campaign off the ground ,still having problems with it but I've had it up to 340 turns so somethings got to be right.

I'll keep on posting progress cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif M.E
01-17-2003, 05:59
Lord Krazy

I think this deserves attention

Thank You

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif
01-17-2003, 09:37
PanthaPower

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]no matter how many factions you may have you must have the papists involved otherwise it CTD'S after first turn.(hard code i believe)

Yes, I can confirm this. The pope seems to be hardcoded. If I recall correctly from my tests, removing the SetCulture:: is what actually locks up the game when you hit End Turn. All other items can be removed but no matter what, the pope will reappear after turn one. And if I recall correctly from my tests (a while ago) it tries to appear in the original Papel States from the normal MTW campaign but if not available, it will pop up somewhere else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]SET NEIGHBOURS must be written in exactly the same order as SET border info
SetNeighbours:: ID_SCOTLAND ID_NORTH_UMBRIA ID_IRELAND ID_BRITTANY ID_ENGLISH_CHANNEL ID_BAY_OF_BISCAY

SetBorderInfo:: ID_NORTH_UMBRIA ID_SCOTLAND 7480 4496 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND FLAT NO_RIVER
SetBorderInfo:: ID_IRELAND ID_SCOTLAND 8152 2672 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND FLAT NO_RIVER
SetBorderInfo:: ID_BRITTANY ID_SCOTLAND 7520 1728 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN HLL2FLT NO_RIVER
SetBorderInfo:: ID_ENGLISH_CHANNEL ID_SCOTLAND 6552 4656 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN COAST FLAT NO_RIVER
SetBorderInfo:: ID_BAY_OF_BISCAY ID_SCOTLAND 7880 5864 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN COAST FLAT NO_RIVER

Are you sure about this M.E.? The mod Whitey and me are working on ran for 200+ turns with SetNeighbours/SetBorderInfo totally different from your system. If I have some time, I will test this some more.
01-17-2003, 11:45
PanthaPower

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 17 2003,03:47)]2nd All border info ie:SetBorderInfo:: ID_LORRAINE ID_BOHEMIA 17400 9672 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND FLT2HLL NO_RIVER
must match SetBorderInfo:: ID_BOHEMIA ID_LORRAINE 11088 10976 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND HLL2FLT NO_RIVER

Are you sure about this Mr Egg? I haven't played with these stats too much but in my opinion the stats are only used for picking a battle map and the corresponding textures. See e.g. this part of an original Early.txt:

------------------------------------
SetBorderInfo:: ID_SCOTLAND ID_NORTH_UMBRIA 7688 4632 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER
------------------------------------
SetBorderInfo:: ID_NORTH_UMBRIA ID_SCOTLAND 7480 4496 0 TEMPERATE AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND HLL2MNT NO_RIVER
------------------------------------

As you can see North_Umbria to Scotland is Temperate, Inland, No river and Hill2Mountain.
Scotland to North Umbria is LUSH (instead of temperate), Inland, No river and HILLY instead of MNT2HLL (what I would expect regarding to your post).

Another close look at the Neighbours/Attributes will show some more interesting parts:

------------------------------------
SetBorderInfo:: ID_SCOTLAND ID_NORTH_UMBRIA 7688 4632 0 LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER

SetAttributes:: ID_SCOTLAND "Scotland" 2 CATHOLIC_CULTURE TEMPERATE AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 190 "Scotland Castle_xzy" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER
------------------------------------
SetBorderInfo:: ID_NORTH_UMBRIA ID_SCOTLAND 7480 4496 0 TEMPERATE AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN INLAND HLL2MNT NO_RIVER

SetAttributes:: ID_NORTH_UMBRIA "Northumbria" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 230 "Northumbria Castle_xzy" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER
------------------------------------

See that in the SetBorderInfo from NorthUmbria to Scotland you specify the SetAttributes from Scotland to create the battle map The objects that need to be taken into the SetBorderInfo from the SetAttributes from the bordering country seem to be terrain, land ie, architecture, vista and river. Especially the vista (e.g. HLL2MNT) part doesn't seem to make sence because it cannot be traced in the SetAttributes. That why my guess is that this item can be "chosen" by the user to create a map with e.g. a height advantage for the defensive or offensive side. More testing needs to be done on this though.
The architecture used in the SetBorderInfo doesn't seem to relate to the SetAttributes though. I will explain it below in the following examples:

------------------------------------
SetBorderInfo:: ID_CASTILE ID_CORDOBA 3928 17800 0 ARID AT_ISLAMIC INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER

SetAttributes:: ID_CORDOBA "Cordoba" 0 MUSLIM_CULTURE ARID AT_SOUTHERN_EUROPEAN -1 450 "Cordoba Castle_xzy" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER
------------------------------------
SetBorderInfo:: ID_CORDOBA ID_CASTILE 4016 17648 0 ARID AT_SOUTHERN_EUROPEAN INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER

SetAttributes:: ID_CASTILE "Castile" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE ARID AT_SOUTHERN_EUROPEAN -1 620 "Castile Castle_xzy" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER

------------------------------------

Notice in SetBorderInfo to CORDOBA shows AT_ISLAMIC while you see MUSLIM_CULTURE and AT_SOUTHERN_EUROPEAN in SetAttributes.
The SetBorderInfo to CASTILE shows AT_SOUTHERN_EUROPEAN while you see CATHOLIC_CULTURE and AT_SOUTHERN_EUROPEAN in SetAttributes.

In the folowing example the SetBorderInfo to Jerusalem shows AT_ISLAMIC while you see MUSLIM_CULTURE and AT_ISLAMIC in SetAttributes. (try to notice the difference between architecture in relation to culture used in SetBorderInfo and Setattributes in all these examples)

------------------------------------
SetBorderInfo:: ID_SINAI ID_JERUSALEM 29464 23168 0 ROCK_DESERT AT_ISLAMIC INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER

SetAttributes:: ID_JERUSALEM "Jerusalem" 0 MUSLIM_CULTURE ROCK_DESERT AT_ISLAMIC -1 525 "Jerusalem Castle_xzy" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER
------------------------------------

Showing one more example will make things more clear. If you check the SetBorderInfo to Morocco, it shows AT_ISLAMIC while you see MUSLIM_CULTURE and AT_ISLAMIC in SetAttributes.

------------------------------------
SetBorderInfo:: ID_ALGERIA ID_MOROCCO 4576 21712 0 ROCK_DESERT AT_ISLAMIC INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER

SetAttributes:: ID_MOROCCO "Morocco" 0 MUSLIM_CULTURE ARID AT_ISLAMIC -1 255 "Morocco Castle_xzy" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER
------------------------------------

What does this all tell you?

Well, it tells that for the Almohads (who control Morocco and Cordoba used in these examples) use different architecture attributes in the SetAttributes which means that architecture in SetAttributes is NOT related to culture and religion
As shown in the Cordoba example, SetBorderInfo can be chosen indepently of the SetAttributes info to create a different feel for the battle maps. The Southern European, Eastern European, Western European and Islamic properties are linked to the MTW\Models directory.

As everyone probably knows the object MUSLIM_culture and Catholic_culture used in SetAttributes are ofcourse related to the faction's SetReligion and SetBehaviour attributes.

Okay, hope that everything is understandable (english is not my native language) and that this gives some more fuel for further discussions on this part http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

Panthapower
01-17-2003, 11:59
PanthaPower

Hi Wellington.

Excellent idea of making a new guide through collecting everyones ideas and knowledge. Well, here's my first contribution.

Me and Whitey are working on a LOTR Middle Earth map. Needlesss to say, we have a goal to change almost everything but we haven't tried all our ideas yet because our basic Campaign map is not working bug free yet. I hope your beta-tool will be finished soon (especially the BMP to LBM coversion) so that we can continue modding/testing more ideas.
Things we ran into are the pope problems (see above reply in response to Mr Egg) and all kinds of trouble resulting in a CTD. What we tried to change till now mostly involves the Early.txt attributes and everything concerning unit changes. Whitey did all of that so ask him about Unit changes problems.

Here are some of my thoughts on your questions. Some of them are assumptions based on my knowledge and findings so far. If I assume, I will write it in my answer. Here's the list:

- is it necessary to ALWAYS have 2 'opposite' cultures (ie: Christian/Islamic, Christian/Orthadox, Orthadox/Islamic OR can we define a mod with just 1 culture for all/most factions?
In my idea no. Including the pope plus another faction should be enough. I will soon test this.

- do we ALWAYS require a/the Pagan faction?
I have no idea.

- do we ALWAYS require the Golden Horde to appear?
Haven't played that far in my semi-working campaign so I have no idea. I will report as soon as I can test an improved version of my campaign.

- is the Pope faction ALWAYS required
YES. Even if you take out his starting treasure, placeleader, etc he will still be in the game.

- what happens if we have do Christian factions BUT none of these factions are 'Crusader' type factions (like the Danes)?
Don't know.

- do we require a minimum number of Sea regions to be defined?
As far as I tested it, NO. In my opinion, maps with only land regions should work without crashes.

- do we require a minimum number of Land regions to be defined?
Eh, don't think so. In my opinion we need at least 2 land regions to place at least two factions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

- what is the minimum number of factions we can define?
Not sure but from what I've tested till now, removing major factions from the game didn't result in errors or crashes as long as they are removed properly. So that would mean the answer is a minimum of two.

- what is the minimum number of cultures we can define?
Don't know.

- if we MUST have the Pope defined, and put him on an island with no sea port defined for that Land region - what happens if some faction invades and kills the Pope? Will the Papla faction always re-generated in other 'strange' regions?
What I know is that if you don't include the pope in the game but leave a few attributes like SetCulture::, the pope will ALWAYS try to reappear in ID_Rome. So I assume that if you put the pope on an Island with ID_Wessex and you kill him, he can reappear in ID_Rome too because it seems to be hardcoded.

- What happens if we define 2 adjacent provinces with different characteristics that do not appear to be supported in the present Scripts?
I assume you are poiting to the Mountain, plains, etc section. Well, as far as I tested it so far, it is only used to load the particular battle map. If you autocalc turns, it doesn't seem to matter what you use there because it will simply not crash the game. One small note here is that if you fail to define the 2 adjacent regions correctly it will crash the game when you do the following: Right click on a region to bring up the information screen. Now move to a neighbour. The information screen now displays the statistics for attacking this country (river, mountain, etc). If the borderinfo is not correct, you will get a CTD without warning.

Here's another thing that pops up in my head for now.

To change the province name it seems to be sufficient to go to Names.txt and change the line:

["Mercia"] {"Mercia"}
into e.g.
["Mercia"] {"USA"}

Most of the pop ups in the game will carry the correct name now and also the display map, info screens, etc. I haven't tested it enough yet to see if e.g. "Mercia Lost" messages will appear correctly because this is a seperate section in the changes.txt and I'm not sure yet if it relates to the Names.txt.

Panthapower
01-17-2003, 14:37
PanthaPower

Guys,

I found some new stuff about the attributes so I edited my post in reponse to Mr EGG about the border info. It's the loooong one. Please read it again if you read it before this post was made.

Panthapower

(edited typing errors)
01-17-2003, 15:54
MR EGG

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 17 2003,02:37)]

Are you sure about this M.E.? The mod Whitey and me are working on ran for 200+ turns with SetNeighbours/SetBorderInfo totally different from your
system. If I have some time, I will test this some more.

Cheers P.P
I'm not 100% sure but this seemed to get my mod working.
To be honest I think its a combination of all diferent sections, the trouble is you get one thing working which in turn disabels something else http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif like for instance
rebels & civil wars seemed to cause a crash, my test concluded that this was because the map the armies met on had different entries in set border info so the game CTD'S
even before it reaches comand the the defence personaly bit.All these things seem to confuse the game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif and me cheers M.E
01-18-2003, 17:40
fodder

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]is the Pope faction ALWAYS required

Even if a pope doesnt appear in the startpos file he will still respawn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]what is the minimum number of factions we can define?

the campaign will work with 1 faction defined.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] if we MUST have the Pope defined, and put him on an island with no sea port defined for that Land region - what happens if some faction invades and kills the Pope?

If you put the pope on an island (or land region) with no borders, no-one can kill him so no respawns. Can the pope die out because of lack of heirs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]is it necessary to ALWAYS have 2 'opposite' cultures (ie: Christian/Islamic, Christian/Orthadox, Orthadox/Islamic OR can we define a mod with just 1 culture for all/most factions?

1 culture will work fine, but the pope will respawn even if there are no catholic regions.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]do we require a minimum number of Sea regions to be defined?
As far as I tested it, NO. In my opinion, maps with only land regions should work without crashes.

A map with no sea regions will work fine. Anyone know what happens if you still have ports (coordinates) but no sea regions? And will "storms" still happen if there are no seas?
01-19-2003, 01:14
MR EGG

Quote
Can the pope die out because of lack of heirs?

No the Pope dosn't have any kids dosn't need them, Cardinals I believe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
01-20-2003, 02:01
MR EGG

Hello pantha power could you answer a couple of questions please.
1:how many land sea regions does your map have?
2:same but factions?
3:do the factions your using start in the original regions they would use in the defalt map?
4:how many religions do you use and what?
5:does your campaign ctd sometimes at 20 turns and other times at 100,200 etc.
thanks just trying to compare a few notes
cheers M.E
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
01-20-2003, 02:20
Wellington

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 19 2003,19:01)]Hello pantha power could you answer a couple of questions please.
1:how many land sea regions does your map have?
2:same but factions?
3:do the factions your using start in the original regions they would use in the defalt map?
4:how many religions do you use and what?
5:does your campaign ctd sometimes at 20 turns and other times at 100,200 etc.
thanks just trying to compare a few notes
cheers M.E
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Mr Egg,

Can you E-mail me a copy of the Script file (Early.txt) your using for your campaign. I want to see what you've changed, and how that compares to what I've seen in your screen shots, in order to check it with the Scripts I'm generating in LMM.

Alternately, post it in this thread if it is'nt too big.

Thanks,
Welly
01-20-2003, 10:50
PanthaPower

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 20 2003,01:01)]

HI M.E.

I will answer your questions but please note that Whitey and I used a lot of different early.txt and started from scratch a few times to try an solve certain issues. We had it working quite well a few times (campaign wouldn't crash within a few turns) so the answers will be based on those semi-working text files. Here's the answers to your questions:

1:how many land sea regions does your map have?
75 land regions and 24 sea regions

2:same but factions?
varying from 5 till original faction settings (i think it is 20).

3:do the factions your using start in the original regions they would use in the default map?
We had semi-working scripts ranging from 100% different starting positions to approximately 60% original starting positions.

4:how many religions do you use and what?
REL_ISLAMIC, REL_CATHOLIC, REL_ORTHODOX and REL_PAGAN

5:does your campaign ctd sometimes at 20 turns and other times at 100,200 etc.
Yes we had similar findings. Solving these kind of problems is very hard without the debug option. Like you, solving one problem that you find in the script sometimes seems to lockup the game afetr the correction. Sometimes it introduces new problems. I hope that with the LMM program, things will become easier and supply us with 100% correct borderinfo. I won't have too much time the coming three evenings but I might have one hour this evening to test a new script I made with the help of Wellington's LMM. I pray it works...
01-20-2003, 18:14
MR EGG

Hello Welly heres the link to my script and a copy of my lukmap oh it's in png format hope thats ok.

Thanks P.P for the answers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif this realy helps cheers

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/ISSY%20WHI...f+civilwar.txt

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/ISSY%20WHIZZY/MapTex+copy.png
01-20-2003, 21:15
Wellington

I'm very close now to cracking the major problem with modders writing new Scripts for new campaign maps.

I think I know exactly what the problem is - and I'll incorporate the solution/work-a-around into LMM version 3. If you want to know what 'the major problem', is for the purpose of your own campaign map/Script- then E-Mail me. I won't be discussing it further in this thread (you'll understand why when I reply to any E-mails).

I'll be listing a few other findings re do's and don'ts in Script amending in a later post. For now I'm busy finalising the documentation for LMM version 2.

(Mr Egg - thanks for the link to your Script - it told me a lot)

Welly
01-21-2003, 00:28
PanthaPower

Wellington,

please check your email or I won't be able to sleep http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

If you didn't get the email, please write your "major problem" findings to: Arjanvanpanhuis@hotmail.com

Thanks
01-21-2003, 13:08
MR EGG

Oh the building tension http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif mto please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

www.issywhizzy@aol.com"
01-21-2003, 21:15
MR EGG

Just a little something else

SetNeighbours:: ID_SCOTLAND ID_NORTH_UMBRIA ID_IRELAND ID_BRITTANY ID_ENGLISH_CHANNEL ID_BAY_OF_BISCAY

the land regions should allways come before the sea regions (AS ABOVE) otherwise they don't link together properly
01-21-2003, 21:22
Wellington

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 21 2003,14:15)]Just a little something else

SetNeighbours:: ID_SCOTLAND ID_NORTH_UMBRIA ID_IRELAND ID_BRITTANY ID_ENGLISH_CHANNEL ID_BAY_OF_BISCAY

the land regions should allways come before the sea regions (AS ABOVE) otherwise they don't link together properly

Absolutely. LMM 1 did'nt do this correctly - LMM 2 does

Hang on a while for my E-Mail replies - I'm no longer 100% sure my original conclusions. I'm still investigating this area of Scripts and trying to document my findings.

Jesus, I've been looking at and testing Scripts for so long now, sometimes I think I've gone mad ...

... hhmm ... maybe I have http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif
01-25-2003, 02:51
Whitey

cor blimey - one leaves for a while, comes back - and the holy grail is in the middle of being created...
01-26-2003, 09:38
Wellington

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Whitey @ Jan. 24 2003,19:51)]cor blimey - one leaves for a while, comes back - and the holy grail is in the middle of being created...

Whitey,

Nice to see you back with us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

I'm not sure whether you are refering to this Script thread or to LMM. This Script thread was started really to get ideas as to why the LMM generated Scripts were not showing up in MTW. This problem has now been cracked. This thread will be VERY USEFUL and also be continued after we get LMM released. At such a point all persons involved in the LMM project will (hopefully&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif concentrate on the next stage to LMM - a GUI VB6 Script editor that uses the info provided by LMM (various text files and one or other of the generated maps) to allow users to amend Scripts.

Now you are back it would be great to have your input into the LMM project

Welly
02-04-2003, 08:02
dr3mew3vr

This is in regards to "The Swiss Emerge" hardcoded event around the late 1300s to early 1400s. If you're making a new map or campaign, without including the Swiss, the game crashes with a "No portrait found" error. My first inclination was to make sure Switzerland was included as a region and that the Swiss were included as a major or minor faction. I tested this and it worked fine all the way through the endgame; but if you want the Swiss (or whatever new faction you mod them into) to emerge, there is an easier way. You would still need to have Switzerland as a region and include them in the following
SetStartLeader::
Normally, you would need PlaceLeader:: also for all factions, but you won't need it for the Swiss if you want them to emerge. Of course you would need to change the other basic stuff to have them in the game, but that is the main difference from the Swiss emerging and "regular" factions. Btw, this is how it's done in the default Early.txt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif
02-04-2003, 08:31
Wellington

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Feb. 04 2003,01:02)]This is in regards to "The Swiss Emerge" hardcoded event around the late 1300s to early 1400s. If you're making a new map or campaign, without including the Swiss, the game crashes with a "No portrait found" error. My first inclination was to make sure Switzerland was included as a region and that the Swiss were included as a major or minor faction. I tested this and it worked fine all the way through the endgame; but if you want the Swiss (or whatever new faction you mod them into) to emerge, there is an easier way. You would still need to have Switzerland as a region and include them in the following
SetStartLeader::
Normally, you would need PlaceLeader:: also for all factions, but you won't need it for the Swiss if you want them to emerge. Of course you would need to change the other basic stuff to have them in the game, but that is the main difference from the Swiss emerging and "regular" factions. Btw, this is how it's done in the default Early.txt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif

Good stuff Dreamweaver http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif but a couple more questions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

From your testing it would appear that, if your campaign includes the time period late 1300s to early 1400s, it woulkd be a good idea to use the Swiss for one of your "new" factions. If that is the case then (for the Swiss) -

- do we also have to PlaceLeader:: on ID_SWITZERLAND?
- do we have to include ID_SWITZERLAND and ensure this region is owned by the Swiss faction?
- what happens if the Swiss are destoyed and they re-appear. Do they ALWAYS reappear on ID_SWITZERLAND?
- if our time period does NOT include the above time is it then NOT essential to have ID_SWITZERLAND on the map?
- do the same rules apply for the Golden_Horde?

Welly
02-04-2003, 14:09
fodder

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Feb. 04 2003,01:02)]This is in regards to "The Swiss Emerge" hardcoded event around the late 1300s to early 1400s. If you're making a new map or campaign, without including the Swiss, the game crashes with a "No portrait found" error.

Do you know if this also happens if you have the swiss in play from the start?
If you are trying to prevent factions emerging, is it ok to put them in play but isolated from the rest of the game?

An unrelated question: Do events such as this or the compass occur at specific dates or do they happen after a set number of game turns?
02-04-2003, 19:42
Lord Krazy

It should be by date as you can start the game
in three different periods.
If you don't want them to take effect remove
Compass and gunpowder from the build_prod13.txt.

With regard to the swiss if you have in the game it will
work, as for isolating them I'm not sure what you mean.
Do you have everyone ignore them or vica versa or both?
Do you want them just to behave as a minor faction?
(that's easy as it's what they do anyway)

One way or the other you have to have them.

Give them another name and hope for the best http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif
02-04-2003, 20:15
Lord Krazy

Whitey http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif
02-06-2003, 08:11
dr3mew3vr

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Feb. 04 2003,01:31)]From your testing it would appear that, if your campaign includes the time period late 1300s to early 1400s, it woulkd be a good idea to use the Swiss for one of your "new" factions. If that is the case then (for the Swiss) -

Welly

I haven't actually tested all the different variables yet, but here some things that worked...

- do we also have to PlaceLeader:: on ID_SWITZERLAND?
For new factions, I placed them in ID_SWITZERLAND and it worked to endgame.

- do we have to include ID_SWITZERLAND and ensure this region is owned by the Swiss faction?
Same as above.
- what happens if the Swiss are destoyed and they re-appear. Do they ALWAYS reappear on ID_SWITZERLAND?
Haven't tested.
- if our time period does NOT include the above time is it then NOT essential to have ID_SWITZERLAND on the map?
I tried it on the Early script w/o Swiss and no Switzerland="No portrait" crash.
- do the same rules apply for the Golden_Horde?
The Golden Horde works fine with your default LMM script of SetCulture:: SetReligion:: SetBehaviour:: SetShieldImage::. I haven't tried removing these yet. They appear w/ no noticeable errors if you go to the endgame regardless of era.

I will try to check those situations you mentioned above.
03-05-2003, 00:08
Wellington

Nice piece of info pertaining to Script files offered by Eat Cold Steel (as posted in the FAQ stickied). Just added it to this thread for posterity

"Apparaently this isn't a well know startpos command - people are still asking how to change the end date:

SetGameEndDate:: 2003"
04-06-2003, 01:23
Lord Of Storms

The Horde, Swiss and Burgundian will always emerge at set time, the Papist however will only re-emerge if they existed in Rome before, if if you take out they faction altogether then they can't come back. Here is the deal, "if they existed in Rome before" what you can do is mod out ID_ROME from the game (or make a blank region and make that Rome like sahara - with no neighbour so the Papist will never get hold of it from the rebels,) the Papist will get one life only. Don't try the same with the other emerging factions, the only thing you can do with them for the time being is the fiddle with the year to stop them hitting their birthday. 1230 for the horde, 1280 - 1453 for Swiss. 1350 - 1453 for the Burgundian. I suppose you could give them their only little islands so they don't play a part on you campaign, but you'll still get their messages.
Copied over from FAQ Question to Eat Cold Steel about modding the Pope out of the Game...LOS
04-06-2003, 01:26
Lord Of Storms

More from ECS on modding the Pope out of the game:Actually, I am not sure if it will work or not, he will be out of the game but all the stuff to do with excommuication and granting crusades and stuff will still be in effect - he'll still meddle in your kingdom when even when he is off the map. Give it a try anyway, replace all ID_ROME with ID_AFRICA and ID AFRICA with ID_ROME. By effectively isolating the pope he will exist but not interfere with gameplay...LOS