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What's the best way to use these units (which includes their Karthadastim imitations, and perhaps Keltohellenikoi)? I usually have them out on the flanks, but it does mean they sometimes end up in contact with phalanxes and get chewed up.
Should they be held in reserve behind the line? How do other people deploy theirs?
I usually have them on the flanks too, I usually have 2 of these units in an army, at the max I have 4 in an army. I hear they can be deployed as line infantry too, but I use phalanx for that.
On the flanks I use them to hold the enemies' flanking troops, while I have cavalry and infantry move past them and attack the enemy from the rear.
They perform very well in combat and are GREAT at stopping cavalry charges with few losses. Especially in sieges I use them to bring down the enemy (bodyguard) cavalry. These are excellent versatile infantry capable of filling a lot of roles on the battlefield.
~Fluvius
In my Qart Hadashtim armies they make up either the far left flank or the ends of both flanks if it is a small army. How you use them depends mostly on the army you are facing. In my campaign, I mostly face barbarian armies, which tend to form a blob rather than a line, so I have plenty of space to let my units walk around the enemy formation to their rear. If your enemy, for some reason, decides to put a phalanx unit on the flank, you should pull your units back and put them in reserve. The only unit you should have facing an enemy phalanx is another phalanx, anything else is going to get hacked to pieces.
If I have Phalangitai in the army, I'll put the Thorakitai on the flanks with the Thureophoroi behind them...
If my main line is made of Hoplitai or spearmen, I'll decide if having them as reserves or as flankers...
I also put them on the flanks. I generally bring 2 units of each if I can recruit them. The thureophoroi are then behind the thorakitai on each flank where they act as flankers/counterflankers, the thorakitai themselves sometimes perform the same role and sometimes act as a line unit if the enemy attack favours that flank.
This is in Carthaginian and Koinon Hellenon armies. My Macedonians didn't have thorakitai (but used Thureoporoi in the same role of reserve flank-guard/flanker) and I haven't played Seleucids or Epirotes yet. The armies I used only have a couple of phalanx units so hoplitai and thorakitai have to stand up pikes no matter what I do. I think that in a Seleucid army I'd still put the thorakitai on flank of the front lines rather than further back, though. They're mobile enough to avoid being attacked by a phalanx as long as I want them to, and I dislike having phalanx units on my extreme flanks anyway.
Well, in my Ptolemaic campaign, my army in (western) Anatolia is based on Thureophoroi as the main force. This is, of course, because I don't have much of a choice: no phalangites are available for training there (at least not yet). I can't say how that's working out, though, as they haven't been put to any real test yet. However, based on the performance of my "marines", that is my army of a few thureophoroi supported by light cav and archers, it should work well enough.
Elsewhere I mostly use them on the flanks which seems to be standard practice around here.
I almost always use the Thorakitai as my main line infantry (i'm not much of a fan of Phalangites), stick them in guard mode and they will hold practically anything.
Thureophoroi if I have them are generally stationed behind the main line to counter any flankers, specifically cavalry. Sometimes they are used as line troops when i'm short on money or there is no better alternative.
So by the sound of it, I'm not doing anything unusual in my use of them, besides retreating from any attempts to engage them by enemy phalanxes.
I use both as flankers: the Thorakitai are more useful though IMO, as with them having armor, they have more staying power. I never use either as the core of my armies: phalangites perform this role infantrywise.Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
In my Seleukid campaign I tend to use them a lot in conjunction with Peltastai, light infantry (such as eastern axemen), and prodromoi, so I have quite a mobile army. I send the thureophoroi and peltastai to the flanks (and with their spears they get advantage vs enemy cavalry), while the thorakitai attack from the front. Once the thorakitai have locked the enemy in place, and the peltastai and thureophoroi have spent all of their javelins, and enemy cavalry have been taken care of (for this generally a thureophoroi aided by the prodromoi), I chargee!! This generally collapses the enemy flanks and I'm free to move against the center, which most of the time is a brawl between my own phalanxes and the enemy phalanxes.
depends on my army compostion, when i have an ample amount of pure line holders the Thorakitai are positioned at the left and right flank with the thureophoi behind them while (by half a unit) shifted to the flank. from then on they usally take care of anything that comes up during the fight: if I need an extra line holder- thorakitai move in if my cav manages to pin down the enemy horsies thureophoroi catch and destroy them, if the need for an extra flanking unit arises the kelto-hellenics charge them rigt in the rear.
I tend to rate my (generic infantry-) units according to their capabilities in line holding versus flanking and arrange them with the most "lineholdery" unit in the centre and most "flanky" ones, well on the flanks.
Well, that depends on wich faction im playing.
As Epeiros i almost always Rp something like "Pyrrhus,(almost visionary) has seen the potential of a more mobile force in his wars against the Romaioi and has reformed the army, etc."
leaving elite phalanxes as a more rare unit only to be seen in the Basileus army (somekind of "bodyguards")......
So i put Thueroporoi in the first line and Thorakitai behing........ thats the core of the army.
But playing as Makedonia (Long live Hysterois..... as the main battleline xD) or any other phalanx based army, y just use Thureoporoi and Thoraikai as flankers (awesome flankers btw), leaving the good old Phalanxes doing their job. MASSACRE
Most of my campaigns with hellenic factions I played a long time ago and back then I mostly blitzed (before it got boring). I nearly never used Thorakitai because I prefer to develop the economy of my empire and don't build bigger MICs until later and when I blitzed I got bored before I had wider access to Thorakitai. So I can't say much about them, but because I like big AoRs and cost-effectivness I would prefer other units I think.
Though I used Thureophoroi and Lybian Spearmen in great numbers. As KH or Carthies they were, together with Hoplites or Liby-Pheonicians, the core of the army and used as line troops and flankers. When playing successor factions they were flankers but often part of the line troops too because I never liked phalanxes to much...
Now I would probably use them as the core unit of every hellenic army since my playing style changed. Mobility is everything to me and I rate good stamina much higher then I did in earlier campaigns. I RP much more since blitzing got boring and so I would still recruit phalangitai and hoplitai but roleplay changes in the military every time to have more Thureophoroi, Peltastai or similar troops, not just because I like mobility much more and hate phalanxes (who I weakened when rebalancing nearly all units) but also because that's what happened in history with Rome's rise in power.
They would be great if they had a better stamina bonus but they don't and get cut up by everything. Incidentally they are better than Classicals vs Barbarian units for that exact reason and their slightly better defense(less armor) stat. IIRC.
they are line infantry, I prefer to use cheaper peltastai for flankers, and not big fan of phalangites, unless in some very certain circumstances (such as vs phalanx spamming AS, or wandering arround kicking sissies in egypt
I agree with bobbin. Generally they form my line infantry in a psuedo roman style army. In the rare cases when I have a phalanx based army I skip the Thorakitai and just use their lighter cousins in a line behind the phalanxes, ready to run to the sides when the enemy flanks me.
i agree with bobin main batle line on guardmode and they can last and last and last altough i must admit the diference beteween them and classical hoplites is the extra javelins wich come in handy when fighting against barbarians
my main batle formation normally consists of either rhodians or kretikoi (2 to 3 units) 4-6 trorokithai and 2-3 thuropoi for flanks and then ofc come the cavalry some exotic units (rhompaia rulles for flanking) and the general but the basis are always 10 to 12 units with cavalry archers/slingers and the bulk of infantry (the main reason why makedonia is no longer my favourite faction is their lack of thorokitai altough the agrarians and thracian units are very much apreciated)
I allways use them on the flanks. as Phalanx factions i make a "V" or a "U" with a big Phalanx line in from and my Thureophoroi one line further than the Phalanx so then can run behind the enemy and throw their javs in the backs of the enemies and then charge...
In a period i used them in co-op with my Prodomoi to counter Cataphracts and other like Hetairoi... throw javs at the enemy, attack and swing Prodomoi in from the frank... it is VERY effective... i useually only lost 5-6 spearmen and no horses and thats against Seleukid Cataphracts...
How would you build a Roman-style army if you don't have access to heavy swordsmen? I think Pontos do later on, but do many other factions? I'm struggling to think how, short of using Peltastai Makedonikoi any of the Hellenistic factions could do it. I think Qart-Hadast would have to use some elite heavy swordsmen too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blxz
Unless you'd just use them for the rear-most line? Or the second? Then you could use regular Peltastai for your first line and maybe hoplites for the third.
By Roman style I think they mean manipular formations.
Wait till NOM...practically all your Hellenistic infantry will be Thureophoros style troops.
Ah, that makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin
Awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegeek2