And if you need any proof.
I am so glad that Wisconsinites smartened up and voted for this man. This is what Wisconsin needs...this is what America needs. Unions are the problems in soooo many industries, not least of all: education.
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And if you need any proof.
I am so glad that Wisconsinites smartened up and voted for this man. This is what Wisconsin needs...this is what America needs. Unions are the problems in soooo many industries, not least of all: education.
Yes.
Taking away the freedom to organize makes us more free. And war is peace.
Yep, the biggest problem with Wisconsin schools is the unions, not the ever-decreasing funding which will only decrease further under Walker. He is intent on running Wisconsin's greatest asset into the ground with his penny-pinching.
The US spends more on education than any country in the world. Funding is not the issue. In the city where I live, my dad used to work part time as a mail man. Up on the big hill on the big lake, almost half of the big houses belonged to those poor teachers. I'm sorry, but considering the 9!66 poor job that they are doing, they don't deserve half of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by woad&fangs
Sounds like rather extreme mercantilism if you ask me.
Of course not surprising, coming from the US.
Yeah, aren't we great?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
As great as brave and land of the free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
And here silly ol' me thought being against the right to organize was more commonly found in third world dictatorships. But then again, I thought the same about spying on ones own population, torture, imprisonment without trial and so on...
I just have to embrace the zeitgeist, I guess.
The real problem the US faces, is not that the workers have organized, as they have here too. The problem is that the employers haven't done the same. I attribute that to the silly american notion that being alone in the world is somehow good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
He might have the balls, but he lacks a brain.
As a % of GDP the US spends as much on education as Estonia
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ed...pending-of-gdp
Facts are for liberals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Now that Vuk has lied to all of us can we lock the thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Do people in Wisconsion have that unholy grating accent like they do in Minnasoader?
If yes, then nuke
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Originally Posted by Shibumi
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:grin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Only the really rural Wisconsinites have that dorky Fargo accent. Most of us do not.
Is that per person?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Way to whack that strawman.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Gee, that's not taking away anyone's freedom to organize, it's giving employers and employees the freedom to work together outside of union agreements.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article
And as actual absolute dollars, the US spends so very much more, since our GDP is humongous.Quote:
As a % of GDP the US spends as much on education as Estonia
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ed...pending-of-gdp
I'm for prioritizing education, but that isn't the same thing as doing whatever the teacher's unions want.
CR
I agree but Vuks postulation that teachers live up on the hill is stupid and takes away from meaningful disscussion. A tired old talking point of conservative culture wars that any serious observer brushes off on his way to finding the root of the problemQuote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Not that I expect much better
No, it is the truth. Not all teachers are wealthy of course, and some teachers make more than others. What I said about teachers living on the lake was from my own observations and that of my father. (he delivered their mail)Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Many teachers work only half the year, and should be paid for half a year's work if they do. ($20-30k) They should get more money if they do a better job teaching. Teacher's unions should be abolished and the field made competitive.
The average salary for a teacher in Wisconsion is 46,930 dollars American. I would hope a lake house would cost more than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisc...teacher-salary
The average salary for a postman is 54,000
http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-Mailman
So tell me Vuk did your family have a jetski to go along with the lakehouse?
Bollocks, do teachers work the whole year? No. Do they work more than half? Yes.Quote:
Many teachers work only half the year, and should be paid for half a year's work if they do. ($20-30k) They should get more money if they do a better job teaching. Teacher's unions should be abolished and the field made competitive.
Teachers are also entrusted with ya know TEACHING OUR YOUTH. A premium should be put on such a job not to mention you need a 4 year degree to teach in which you specialize in your feild and education. Allot goes into being a teacher.
And you think that $46,930 is a deserved salary for someone who works only a few months of the year and completely fails at their job? Also, you are forgetting the outrageous benefits that teachers get, that makes them far wealthier than their salary shows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
EDIT: BTW, this is the average wage of Middle School Teachers according to BLS.gov...not a teachers site.
25-2022 Middle School Teachers, Except Special and Vocational Education: $53,550
And for mailmen:
Postal Service Mail Carriers $48,940
And guess what? Mailmen work all year long, through any weather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Quote:
Benefits were 52.5% above the U.S. mean ($1,854 vs. $1,216)
http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/45306572.html
I couldn't find an exact number for a postman but I would imagine they stand toe to toe
I think it is a deserved salary for someone who spent 4 years in school and took a thankless job which is constantly framed in evil terms. Is there something wrong with education system? yes. Is a pay by performace system needed? maybe. First we have to nail down what the problem is and then we must define failure. The American education system has produced many great minds along with many derlicts.
You still have yet to tell me how growing up on the lake was.
Maybe you should go back and check your figures Strike. I gave you some good ones to work with that I took from BLS.gov.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Who cares if they spent 4 years in school if they cannot do their jobs? Why would I hire someone to do nothing because they are well schooled?
And what do you mean thankless? People treat teachers as if they are untouchable. Teachers are usually revered, and that is one of the problem as to why it is so hard to reform the education system. I hate to say it, but a good start would be to cut pay on teacher's salaries.
If they do not work a full year, then they should not be paid the wages of someone who does. They work a second job over the summer instead of going on vacations.
The fact is Strike, that American teachers have let the children who they are supposed to teach down, have let thier parents down, and have let their country down. There are literally kids in some of my college classes who have a hard time reading.
The first step in reforming education is to take down the teacher's unions. Before you do that, reform will never work.
WHAT? The "vacations" aren't vacations as you have, it's time off because we have longer weeks than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
And quantifying a teaching job is a retarded idea.
Define failure and we can go from thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
All of the teachers I knew growing up had a second job or worked to advance there teaching carrers over the summer, none sat.Quote:
And what do you mean thankless? People treat teachers as if they are untouchable. Teachers are usually revered, and that is one of the problem as to why it is so hard to reform the education system. I hate to say it, but a good start would be to cut pay on teacher's salaries.
If they do not work a full year, then they should not be paid the wages of someone who does. They work a second job over the summer instead of going on vacations.
Of course no onus is ever put on the child or the parent themselves. Teachers are put in a practically hopless position of being babysitter,caregiver, and knoweledge provider.Quote:
The fact is Strike, that American teachers have let the children who they are supposed to teach down, have let thier parents down, and have let their country down. There are literally kids in some of my college classes who have a hard time reading.
The first step in reforming education is to take down the teacher's unions. Before you do that, reform will never work.
Do you mind actually linking those stats? I still am coming up with the 49 number
http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol11...erjohn11.3.pdf
You still also need to send me pictures of the lake.
Vuk I do not disagree that the education system is in need of reform and that the teachers union will be a big part of that. But do not frame teachers as lazy and sucking of some tit when they are not. Also do not use another government employee who gets paid basically the same as a juxtaposition. Teaching is work many people do not understand
I was not juxtaposing mail carriers to teachers, I stated that my father being a mail carrier is how he observed what he did about teachers. You then made the comparison and I defended mail carriers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
I do not frame all teachers in that way, I simply say that there are too many of them like that. One of my sisters IS a part time teacher, so I obviously do not think that all teachers are evil or lazy.
You are right that teaching is a hard job, and it is one that should be well paid when done correctly. The two biggest problems right now with the education system are teacher's unions and parent's lack of responsibility. (the last one I hear about from my sister all the time.)
Scott Walker is taking the first step in the reform of the economy and of the education system as well, and I admire him for that.
Those stats are national figures and not applicable to Wisconsin by itself.
Teachers make about the average salary in the US which I find perfectly acceptable. Union or not. I think your postulazation of teachers living high on the hog is a flase one, you have since backtracked, which makes sense because you're wrong.
Your response to W&F is a tired talking point which is what I took issue with, it offers nothing other than a bogeyman so people can blame all their ills on teachers.
Education reform is going to take everyone working together to make comprehensive policy, slashing teachers salaries ahould be off the table as should increasing them. I don't think you can start a good discourse by haggling over the price when it comes to education.
I am not haggling over the price of education so much as the logic of paying for something that you are not getting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
You honestly think that slashing the teachers wage budget will remove the untalented teachers and retain the capable ones....?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
When we are talking about education reform for America, you have to realize that when you look at all the components on an individual level, they are all broken and yet somehow the machine keeps chugging along. Talking about the teachers union and their pay is a very narrow section of the multitude of problems that the education system in America faces. Last time I tried to come up with a comprehensive list I got to #16 and told myself, it wasn't worth it to write anymore. My high school physics teacher and I discussed the many problems for many hours over the course of the school year and we didn't even cover everything. Education reform might quite possibly be the most complex problem to unravel in America and unless you truly approach it with the attitude that the entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, then you get mired down with the infinite other problems bogging down your solution to one aspect of the system on the practical level.
Idk, if anyone cares but I can try to find my notebook where I tried to write down every aspect of what is wrong in the education system.
To cøaim that your education system is "broken", a "wreck" etc etc is nonsense.
If it is, then no education system in the history of mankind anywhere in the world has ever working. The fact is that education is tugging along nicely amidst all the hyperbole and daydreaming about a glorified pt that has never been.
The fact is that kids today learn much, much more than they did back in the 50's. And kids ten years from now will learn even more than kids today learn. Thus if wwe want to improve our (already good) schools, then we must look to the future, not bring back the flaws of yesterdays system.