Let's accumulate knowledge a bit.

I know some of you guys have personal experience with this issue, and I respect you a great deal for it, so hear me out and holla back. Aside from the obvious path of becoming a lawyer, what else can you do with a J.D. (or an L.L.B., whatever you wanna call it)? Is is a sort of flexible degree?

football coach

I have no idea. I imagine you could get work at a courthouse, or maybe federal law enforcement.

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

I know some of you guys have personal experience with this issue, and I respect you a great deal for it, so hear me out and holla back. Aside from the obvious path of becoming a lawyer, what else can you do with a J.D. (or an L.L.B., whatever you wanna call it)? Is is a sort of flexible degree?

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Yes and no. JDs are appealing to many areas of work other than law, including pretty much everything involving business, management, negotiation, communications, writing, etc. It's highly respected and people will still think of you as a 'lawyer' even if you aren't actively practicing law. That said, you still have to get a job in those areas. You won't find people clamoring to employ you just because you've got a JD. The JD will give you bonus points and will ensure you are hired over similar competition, but you'll still need to prove that you're qualified for the non-legal position in some manner.

To be perfectly honest, I'm reluctant to recommend law school to anyone at the current time. The legal job market is absolutely brutal. It was very bad when I graduated in 2003 and while the rest of the economy recovered, law didn't. So, every year more and more law students graduated without enough positions for them, and every year the 'backlog' of unemployed lawyers got larger. When the markets imploded in 2008, everything got much, much worse. For the first time in recent memory, major law firms were not only not hiring new attorneys, they were actively laying off hundreds of associates, and even some partners were shuffled out the door. Several big firms went completely under, putting all their attorneys out onto the street.

On top of all of this, whenever there is an economic downturn, people go back to school. They figure that if they're going to be unemployed for a while, they might as well improve their resume in the meantime by getting a better degree. So, with every downturn, law school attendence increases. Current attendance is through the roof... and there are fewer jobs than ever for the graduates. It's a total disaster. The situation isn't bad if you just want the degree and don't care about actually practicing law, but law school isn't cheap. Even attending a state school will still end up running up a tab somewhere between $50k and $80k, start to finish. And that's the low end. I have multiple friends who graduated with over $200k in debt. So, many law students are now graduating with no jobs, and huge debts (which can't be erased by bankruptcy, btw). It's a horror show.

If you are in the top 10% of your class and go to a school with some name recognition, you're still pretty much guaranteed a job. If you're in the top 50%, you've got a good chance of eventually finding employment. If you're not in the top 50%, you're probably going to be unemployed or working part-time at something that will kill your resume. In all cases, you'll have a lot of debt.

Read this article before deciding to go to law school. It is 100% true:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...103000211.html (Account required, I think, so pasting text below)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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How law school went from being a sure thing to a bum deal

By Annie Lowrey moneybox
Sunday, October 31, 2010

During the recession, the logic was ubiquitous: The economy is terrible - better to wait it out! It is a three-year fast track to a remunerative, respectable career! It's not just learning a subject - it's learning how to think! Law school, always the safe choice, became a more popular choice. Between 2007 and 2009, the number of LSAT takers climbed 20.5 percent. Law school applications increased in turn.

But now a number of recent or current law students are saying - or screaming - that they made a mistake. They went to law school, they say, and now they're underemployed or jobless, in debt and three years older. And statistics show that the evidence is more than anecdotal.

One Boston College Law School third-year - miraculously, still anonymous - begged for his tuition back in exchange for a promise to drop out without a degree, in an open letter to the dean published this month. "This will benefit both of us," he argues. "On the one hand, I will be free to return to the teaching career I left to come here. I'll be able to provide for my family without the crushing weight of my law school loans. On the other hand, this will help BC Law go up in the rankings, since you will not have to report my unemployment at graduation to US News. This will present no loss to me, only gain: in today's job market, a J.D. seems to be more of a liability than an asset."

He is one of dozens of law students who have gone public to chastise the schools they elected to attend for leaving them older and poorer. One popular medium is the "scam blog," where indebted, unemployed attorneys accuse law schools of being little better than tuition-sucking diploma mills. The author of one popular, if histrionic, such blog describes his law school as a Ponzi scheme.

Others have taken, perhaps inevitably, to the courts. Kenneth Desornes, for instance, named his law school in his bankruptcy filing. He asks the school to "[a]dmit that your business knew or should have known that Plaintiff would be in no position to repay those loans."

The students might be litigious and overwrought. But they've got a point. The demand for lawyers has fallen off a cliff, both due to the short-term crisis of the recession and long-term changes to the industry, and is only starting to rebound. The lawyers who do have jobs are making less. At the same time, universities seeking revenue have tacked on law schools, minting more lawyers every year.

That has caused some concern among lawyers who think the accrediting organization, the American Bar Association, is doing the profession a disservice by approving so many new schools. (Contrast that with medical schools. They come with much higher startup costs and tend not to be moneymakers. Relatively few students get medical degrees every year, and demand far outstrips supply.)

The job market for lawyers is terrible - and that hits young lawyers the worst. Although the National Association for Law Placement, an industry nonprofit group, reports that employment for the class of 2009 was 88.3 percent, about a quarter of those jobs were temporary, without the salaries needed by most new lawyers to pay off crushing debts. Another 10 percent were part-time. And thousands of jobs were fellowships or grants provided by the new lawyers' law schools.

The big firms that make up about 28 percent of recent grads' employment slashed their associate programs in 2009 and 2010, rescinding offers to thousands and deferring the start dates of thousands more. Worse, the profession as a whole shrunk: The number of people employed in legal services hit an all-time high of 1.196 million in June 2007. It currently stands at 1.103 million. The number of legal jobs has dwindled by 7.8 percent. In comparison, the total number of jobs has fallen 5.4 percent over the same period.

At the same time, the law schools - the supply side of the equation - keep growing. Law schools awarded 43,588 J.D.s last year, up 11.5 percent since 2000. And the American Bar Association's list of approved law schools now numbers 200, an increase of 9 percent in the past decade. Those newer law schools have a much shakier track record of helping new lawyers get work, but they don't necessarily cost less than their older, more established counterparts.

But what of those high salaries for the lawyers who do get jobs? After all, big law schools report that the average graduate is still making in the high five figures for entry-level work. The problem is those statistics are what lawyers might call hearsay. For one, law schools report their own salary-at-graduation data.

Another point is that prospective law students usually look at average pay at graduation. But the average hides substantial inequality: There are the jobs at white-shoe firms that pay about $160,000 a year to recent graduates, and then there are the rest, which generally pay $45,000 to $60,000. Almost no salaries are near the median or the average. They are clustered at the bottom, with fewer high earners, many of whom come from a handful of super-elite law schools, up at the top. That means that most students do not meet the break-even salary-the starting salary that would make law school tuition a good investment, estimated at around $65,000.

Students simply "cannot earn enough income after graduation to support the debt they incur," wrote Richard Matasar, the dean of New York Law School, in 2005. "Even those making the highest salaries find that the debt that they have accumulated while in school may tax them for years." As of 2008, the average public law school student graduated with $71,436 in debt. For private law school graduates, it was $91,506.

Still, the harsh realities of being a young lawyer have not stopped thousands from enrolling in law school during the recession. Veritas Prep, a graduate school admissions consulting firm, found in a recent survey that four in five prospective applicants still plan to apply to law school even if "a significant number of law school graduates were unable to find jobs in their desired fields." Only 4 percent were dissuaded.

So does that just mean a continued oversupply of lawyers, dragging down their own median salaries and dealing with their heavy debt burdens while a few lucky associates make it to the corporate big leagues? Not necessarily.

David McGowan of the University of San Diego and Bernard Burk of the Center for Corporate Governance at Stanford argue that the trend cannot continue. Prospective students will recognize that law school can be a bad deal, and one way or another is not a sure thing. Applications will slowly drop off.

The marquee law schools will be fine. But some of the newer, lower-ranked law schools will shut down - meaning fewer lawyers, and the vindication, if not the employment, of all of those scam-blog authors.

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If you want to get a degree that will give you a secure future these days, get an MD. The medical industry is VERY robust, and there is always a shortage of medical professionals. The question is where you will get a job and how much you will make, not whether you will find one. You will be employed if you get an MD. If you don't want to spend the time and money to get an MD, consider a nursing degree. Nurses won't make as much as doctors, but they still make a decent salary and they're also guaranteed employment on graduation. A nursing degree is also a lot faster and cheaper.

If you do decide to go to law school, work your :daisy: off to make sure you're one of the lucky ones.

Sounds very much like the effects of deer overpopulation. Does this mean we can start shooting lawyers now? Time to thin the herd... ~D

Thanks a lot for the info. I'd like to add that I live in the very heart of the Canadian prairies, and this so-called depression has sort of... been not much big of a deal as it has been elsewhere. Moreover, I've got some good scholarships lined up, provided I get some work experience after my BA before going to any grad school. Further, as you may very well know, I'm a young, intelligent, hard-working Aboriginal out to get payed; my resume, at this point in my life, speaks for itself. Where I am, there's a lot of opportunities for me.

Of course, I'm still weighing out my possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Tin Cow

...but you'll still need to prove that you're qualified for the non-legal position in some manner.

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And what would this depend on? Previous work experience? Undergraduate studies? As it is right now, I still have the choice of my major between history and political science... I feel very strongly about majoring in history and leaving a minor for the poli sci classes that I have already taken so far, but the limited usefulness of a history major is the only thing that is turning me off on this choice. As I already have many economic classes under my belt that will eventually add up into a Certificate of Economics once I graduate, I don't have any room in my academic schedule for a double major.

Any feedback on this would be great. And Tin Cow, your input thus far is very helpful and appreciated, thanks a lot, bro. Yours too, Strike.

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Thanks a lot for the info. I'd like to add that I live in the very heart of the Canadian prairies, and this so-called depression has sort of... been not much big of a deal as it has been elsewhere. Moreover, I've got some good scholarships lined up, provided I get some work experience after my BA before going to any grad school. Further, as you may very well know, I'm a young, intelligent, hard-working Aboriginal out to get payed; my resume, at this point in my life, speaks for itself. Where I am, there's a lot of opportunities for me.

Of course, I'm still weighing out my possibilities.

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Well, everything I said applies only to the US employment market. I know nothing about what the legal industry is like up north.

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

And what would this depend on? Previous work experience? Undergraduate studies? As it is right now, I still have the choice of my major between history and political science... I feel very strongly about majoring in history and leaving a minor for the poli sci classes that I have already taken so far, but the limited usefulness of a history major is the only thing that is turning me off on this choice. As I already have many economic classes under my belt that will eventually add up into a Certificate of Economics once I graduate, I don't have any room in my academic schedule for a double major.

Any feedback on this would be great. And Tin Cow, your input thus far is very helpful and appreciated, thanks a lot, bro. Yours too, Strike.

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Generally the same stuff any job right out of school depends on, work experience, GPA, interesting personal background information, etc. Graduates from any level of school pretty much have no real experience to base their job application on, so the key is to show that you are very interested in that job, a hard worker, and that you can learn quickly. Those things are attractive to all employers. Interest in the job can be demonstrated by summer work experience in that industry, studies focused in that area, or any extracurricular activity that focuses on that area.

Here's some knowledge you definitely need to accumulate. Is Law School a Losing Game?

Ya don't need a law degree to bus tables.

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

Here's some knowledge you definitely need to accumulate. Is Law School a Losing Game?

Ya don't need a law degree to bus tables.

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That's a good article, and completely accurate.

That said, I do feel like I have perhaps put a bit too much of a damper on the situation. It is possible to do well even today. I graduated in 2003 and am currently practicing law and doing very well financially. My situation is typical in some ways and non-typical in other ways. Most significantly, my wife and I are both lawyers (met first year of law school) and both of us graduated without any debt. We are both only children and our parents were able to pay our way. Our school was a decently ranked public school (William & Mary) and my wife got in-state tuition and her parents were able to pay it comfortably without being exorbitantly wealthy (her father was career military). My parents are pretty well off and would have paid my way no matter where I went. Both of us graduating without any debt made a massive difference in our financial well-being.

My wife was a very good student, graduating in the top 15% of our class. I was an average student, at about the 50% level, but I did have decent summer internships through family connection. After we graduated, neither of us got stellar jobs. On graduation, my wife got a full-time government job, but not as an attorney. Her starting salary was only a little over $40k. I could not find permanent employment. The article Hosakawa Tito linked to briefly discussed a temp position reviewing documents (described as a "veal pen"). That's what I did for two and a half years. It payed decently, between $35 and $50 per hour, but due to the temp nature of the work I was only employed about 9 months a year on average. I averaged about $60k per year while doing it. So, if both my wife and I had been encumbered with the normal amount of student loan debt, we would not have been able to keep up with the payments, just like everyone else in that article. However, without the debt we actually did ok. We lived within our means, saved money regularly, and did not buy anything if we didn't already have the money for it in the bank. Eventually my wife moved into a full legal position with the government, and I applied and was accepted at the same agency. My first year, I actually earned less working for the government than I did with the legal temping. We've both been at this agency for about 5 years now, and our salaries have increased significantly from when we were first hired. We have boatloads of solid legal experience on our resumes and are now locked in with very good career experience in an area of law that is bankable (medicine).

So, it's all worked out well in the end. However, the key was not having any debt. Our experience was pretty much identical to that reported in those articles... no employment on graduation as a lawyer for either of us, and no full-time employment at all for me. It took my wife two years to land a full-time legal job, and it took me two and a half years. However, without the debt we were able to get through it without any financial problems. If you can get yourself into a similar situation, law school might work out well for you. The key is the debt, and you need to take a careful look at how much it is going to cost you before you make that decision.

What I find very disconcerting is the unethical behavior by universities in that article. Nothing in life worth having is free & easy, but that kind of deceit should be criminal.

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

What I find very disconcerting is the unethical behavior by universities in that article. Nothing in life worth having is free & easy, but that kind of deceit should be criminal.

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Undergraduate institutions do the same thing. US News rankings have been incredibly detrimental to the higher education system. Rankings are extremely important for the profitability of the institutions, and thus the institutions do everything they can to make them work in their favor. Some schools have tried to overcome this by refusing to give US News information, but it's a prisoner's dilemma situation. It won't work unless everyone does it, and no one wants to take the risk.

Hehehe, don't I know it. I've put my eldest through college, have a step child attending now with another due to start in 2 years. Hopefully, someday this particular con game will be fixed. It would be richly ironic if it was by a group of former JD victims of the abuse.

Thanks for relating the first hand experience. Pay heed gentlemen.

I won't have any debt on me. Like I said, I'm a young, intelligent, ambitious, hard-working Aboriginal man. I already got good summer internships in the field of law, and I'm only an undergrad right now! All my friends are working at coffeeshops and shit over the summer, lol. There are a lot of opportunities for people like me up here. TinCow, you're a beacon of enlightenment. Let your wife read that compliment, she'll feel like a lucky woman. That aside, she is a lucky woman, regardless of how she would feel. Thanks, bro. :smile:

My pleasure. If you ever have any more questions, do not hesitate to ask. Slap me up with a PM if it's something you'd prefer not to discuss publicly or if I simply miss the thread.

Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok
Everything will be ok

Basically I've decided to gradaute first in my class, It's all doom and gloom, bloodbath this, debt that.

Gotta rise above it.

I also heard that law schools like people who worked through undergrad, now it's no internship but mainting a gpa north of 3 while putting in a full week of work counts for something right?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I also heard that law schools like people who worked through undergrad, now it's no internship but mainting a gpa north of 3 while putting in a full week of work counts for something right?

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Definitely, though I cannot overestimate the importance of your GPA and LSAT score.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Definitely, though I cannot overestimate the importance of your GPA and LSAT score.

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I heard that it's mostly LSAT though, any truth to this?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I heard that it's mostly LSAT though, any truth to this?

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My understanding was that the highest level schools value GPA over LSAT, while LSAT gains more weight as you go down further in the rankings. Regardless, the two scores are by far the most important considerations for law school admission... far more important than GPA and SAT are for undergrad. For law schools, things other than GPA and LSAT constitute a minor aspect that can be determinative, but usually only if you're borderline. Great 'extracurriculars' (or whatever you want to call them) won't help you get in if your scores aren't good enough for that school, and a total lack of 'extracurriculars' won't matter at all if you've got scores well above average for that school.

For reference, my wife and I both went to William and Mary School of Law, which is generally ranked somewhere between 25th and 35th, depending on the year. So, good, but not spectacular. I was admitted with a 2.9 GPA and a 172 LSAT on out-of-state basis. My GPA was way below average for that school (I was a slacker and a pothead), but my LSAT was well above average. I also counted as an international student for their statistical purposes, which likely had a very significant impact on my admission (a rare exeption to my 'extracurriculars don't do much' statement). I'm not 100% on this, but I think my wife was admitted with something like a 3.7 GPA and had an LSAT score somewhere in the high 150s, she was in-state and had attended the same school for undergraduate. So, as you can see those are two very different scores. I had poor GPA but very high LSAT. My wife had a very high GPA and an LSAT that was below average for the school. Personally, I doubt I would have been admitted if I hadn't counted as an international student.

Yea when it's all said and done My GPA will probably be around 3.3

There allot of other things I have to take into consideration (most of which being financial) I'll be out of undergrad at 21 so I was toying with the idea of working for a few years and then going to law school with some financial cushion OR going back home to St.Marys (which is highly regarded in SA but nowhere else teir 4 :shock:) to live with my folks to cut down on that cost. I couldn't come out with the amount of debt I would incur and not find a job. It would be suicide.

I know I love the law and I love pouring over old cases but alas economic downtunrs have no time table

Thanks Tincow

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

There allot of other things I have to take into consideration (most of which being financial) I'll be out of undergrad at 21 so I was toying with the idea of working for a few years and then going to law school with some financial cushion OR going back home to St.Marys (which is highly regarded in SA but nowhere else teir 4 :shock:) to live with my folks to cut down on that cost. I couldn't come out with the amount of debt I would incur and not find a job. It would be suicide.

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Regarding taking a few years off between school, that's very normal and will not disadvantage you at all. The average age of my 1L class was 27, so clearly a very large number of people were getting the degree long after graduation. In professional life, I have never seen any preference for attorneys based on age. If anything, being younger probably hurts you more than being older.

Regarding less-prominent law schools, like St. Mary's, location is a very big factor to consider. State and local law firms and corporations tend to be biased towards hiring 'local' graduates. So, even if a school isn't a top tier school, it can still give you good employment opportunities within the local job market. The key is to make sure that is a job market that is both healthy and one in which you want to work on graduation. If a school is not well-known outside of its state or local community, it will be hard to get a job with a degree from that school elsewhere in the country. So, if you want to increase your odds of being able to be hired anywhere in the country immediately after graduation, you should try to go to a school that is well-known on a national level. However, if you're perfectly happy working in San Antonio, a place like St. Mary's is perfectly fine even if it's lower ranked. Keep in mind as well that where you graduate from law school becomes far less important after you've gotten some legal experience under your belt. Once you've been employed for a while, future employers only care about your work experience. Your old law school is pretty much irrelevant to getting a job at that point, unless you happened to go to someplace like Harvard or Stanford.