The better Africanus

I've been thinking again... I know, it's bad for me... But i've been wondering what you guys think... Who do you think was the better Scipio Africanus? Publius Cornelius or Scipio Aemilianus?

I mean Africanus Major is definetly more known. If someone would ask me this question a month ago i would have no problem saying Aemilianus who?.. Defeating Hannibal is no small task. But the more i read about Aemilianus and his achievments, the more impressed i am by this guy... Defeating Carthage yes; but the revolution he made in Hispania once he assumed command and destroying Numancia, reorganizing his army, being a profound intelectual with his internal circle etc...

I now really don't know whom i were to choose if someone asked me which one i think was the better one. And i mean better generely; not just as a general, but as a politician as well...

What do you guys think? Whom would you vote for? And why? Please respond to this... I had this debate with some pretty well booked up guys, and we can't seem to agree:laugh4:

Guess I'll go for Maior, as Aemilianus opposed the Gracchi...
But I don't like them anyway :D

As a politician, Maior was a non-entity who was outmaneuvered and forced into early retirement. He only got his shot at general-ship because so many of the eligible men of the age were dead.

Bad politician or not, I'd vote for Maior - he faced far more steep military opposition than Aemilianus. Also, I'd point out that there's some who'd call a lack of political craftiness a good thing. -M

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Originally Posted by Mulceber

Bad politician or not, I'd vote for Maior - he faced far more steep military opposition than Aemilianus. Also, I'd point out that there's some who'd call a lack of political craftiness a good thing. -M

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not for a roman ... a leader was a leader either in politics or in the batlefield they had to be complete overall

True that. Although keep in mind that the chief objective of every Roman politician was to gain glory and defend the state. Regardless of his lack of political skill, Maior was quite successful at both. I'd say he was better at it than Aemilianus, but that's just my opinion. -M

The Roman system demonstrated time and again that though you had to exercise a military command to reach the highest offices, skill in politics mattered more than skill at generalship.

Look at exceptional generals like Sertorius, Lucullus and to a lesser degree Pompey (great organiser and administrator, rather average general) who failed in their aspirations because of their lesser political nous (or connections).

Then the sorts of military incompetents like Servilius Caepio who still managed high office and good regard amongst their fellow senatorials.

I agree in general, but I don't know if Caepio actually was a good politician. He was a member of the Servilii Caepiones, one of the most powerful and influential patrician family branches. Patronage played a huge role, and people from some families just seem to have rolled into high office barring extreme incompetence.

(This, supposedly, is actually why Caepio made such a mess at Arausio. He didn't want to cooperate with the new man Gnaeus Mallius Maximus.)

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

The Roman system demonstrated time and again that though you had to exercise a military command to reach the highest offices, skill in politics mattered more than skill at generalship.

Look at exceptional generals like Sertorius, Lucullus and to a lesser degree Pompey (great organiser and administrator, rather average general) who failed in their aspirations because of their lesser political nous (or connections).

Then the sorts of military incompetents like Servilius Caepio who still managed high office and good regard amongst their fellow senatorials.

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I agree in principle. I'm merely pointing out that Maior's accomplishments on the battlefield were perceived to be so extraordinary that not even his failings as a politician could prevent him from achieving near-legendary status in the eyes of later generations. -M

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Originally Posted by Mulceber

I agree in principle. I'm merely pointing out that Maior's accomplishments on the battlefield were perceived to be so extraordinary that not even his failings as a politician could prevent him from achieving near-legendary status in the eyes of later generations. -M

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Wasn't that more because Polybius worked for Aemilianus (thus was complimentary of his ancestor Africanus), and his works happen to have survived (where others that might have been critical have not)?

Please do not be fooled by these impostors, for I am the greatest Africanus! :laugh4:

Seriously, I prefer the major simply because the future of the empire was more in doubt under the original. For all his great accomplishments, Rome remains a great power with or without minor, perhaps not so without major.

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Originally Posted by Africanus

Please do not be fooled by these impostors, for I am the greatest Africanus! :laugh4:

Seriously, I prefer the major simply because the future of the empire was more in doubt under the original. For all his great accomplishments, Rome remains a great power with or without minor, perhaps not so without major.

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Simply and elegantly stated.

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Wasn't that more because Polybius worked for Aemilianus (thus was complimentary of his ancestor Africanus), and his works happen to have survived (where others that might have been critical have not)?

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I've always gotten the impression though that Maior was held in higher esteem by people like Cicero as well, and he definitely would have had access to other sources. I could be reading too much into it though. -M

Aemilianus who? :laugh4: I looked up something about him and he seems to be an interesting character, with the destruction of Carthage almost mythical, again thanks to EB fora I have learned something.

And yes, tough times and great enemy favour Publius Cornelius.

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Originally Posted by Mulceber

I've always gotten the impression though that Maior was held in higher esteem by people like Cicero as well, and he definitely would have had access to other sources. I could be reading too much into it though. -M

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I dunno about that... Cicero mentions Aemilianus in at least a few of his works... And he always speaks of him with great respect... Who's the better Africanus might be a to wide of a question, but it seems i got some of the answers i wanted... Actually exactly what i wanted...

Africanus Major is definetly much more known today then Aemilianus... That's a fact... But i do like my boy Aemilianus more... He was really something

Pah! Roman leaders, up Diviciacus and Commios of the Belgae!

I need to read up more on Aemelianus before I can make a judgement.