Countries greatest military mess-ups

From Great Britain to Ancient China to Modern France, what are the greatest military mess-ups in history.

The first that comes to mind is the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

After 3 days of fighting CIA trained refugees were defeated by Eastern Bloc trained and equipped Cuban forces.



Operation Market Garden

The plan to end WW2 by Christmas met with terrible disaster due to bad intelligence and miscommunication.


And


The Charge of the Light Brigade during the Crimean war.

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The Charge of the Light Brigade was a charge of British cavalry led by Lord Cardigan against Russian forces during the Battle of Balaclava on 25 October 1854 in the Crimean War. It is best remembered as the subject of the poem "The Charge of the Light Brigade" by Alfred, Lord Tennyson, whose lines have made the charge a symbol of warfare at both its most courageous and its most tragic.

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So what are some of histories major military bungles.

Battle of Cannae from Roman side.

hitler invading russia and not conquering britian.

carthage not supplying hannibal.

Market Garden was a risky operation where mistakes did play a role, but we should not forget the fast response and sheer tenacity of the German forces. It was actually very close so IMO I would not consider Market Garden to have been decided mainly by "bad intelligence and miscommunication"

And I certainly don't agree about Cannae. The Romans showed they had learned from past battles against Hannibal. They increased the chances for their biggest asset, the infantry breaking through the center, and limited Hannibal's strength, his cavalry and use of trickery.

But facing Hannibal was not easy as he could adapt and take risks when needed. Sometimes you do your best and still lose and that IMO cannot be considered a screw up.

If I am to stay within the two eras I would consider Trebia: A Roman commander being provoked into sending his army out on an empty stomach on a cold day and having them cross a river in the process. He had no reason to act like that except for being an impetuous and arrogant man.

Montgomery not taking Antwerp/Scheldt when he had the chance: obsessed with lack of supplies and wanting to do a quick rush to the Rhine, but halting instead of clearing out the Scheldt to open up Antwerp with its huge cargo handling capacity. A fantasy of an attack towards Berlin meant he overlooked what was right in front of him: the biggest harbor in Western Europe and German forces that could be trapped and eliminated.

Market Garden was no blunder military you were betrayed by our beloved royal family who were kind enough to tip off the Germans.

http://www.amazon.com/Someone-Blunde.../dp/0713450088 <-- fun read (not about what's said above)

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Market Garden was no blunder military you were betrayed by our beloved royal family who were kind enough to tip off the Germans.

http://www.amazon.com/Someone-Blunde.../dp/0713450088 <-- fun read (not about what's said above)

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Does the book claim the Dutch Royal family leaked info to the Germans? If that is the case I'm quite certain it is incorrect. A Dutch collaborator (Cristiaan Lindemans) does appear to have leaked info but apparently it was rather vague as he only mentioned Eindhoven.

Most the ones I can think off the top of my head have been mentioned so I'll give one from my own country. It's not a world shaking military mess up but other national movements did take note, many Indians especially saw that if the imperial centre could not hold then outlying regions must be vulnerable too.

Britain messed up during 1916 here in Ireland, they wanted to appear firm so General Maxwell started shooting people pretty much straight away, and of course all sorts of people were arrested (in fact more were arrested than took part).

However the overreaction to the rising in Dublin was out of all proportion to it's size and people were turned away from a mild sympathy to the British position to outright hostility. (it did not help that Britain declared martial law suspending democracy)

Finally they shot all the signatories of the 1916 proclamation bar Dev and he ended up kicking them out less than six years later, after what had seemed complete and utter defeat.(takes a special kind of incompetence on the British side to achieve that)

General Maxwell effectively lost Ireland single handed and his superiors agreed he was promoted to a dead end in York and quietly forgotten about.



I just thought of one although It's technically a political misscalculation the Khwarezmian Empire had no need to annoy Ghengis khan by killing one of his ambassadors and degrading the other two, that turned out pretty bad for the Shah in the end.

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Originally Posted by CBR

Does the book claim the Dutch Royal family leaked info to the Germans? If that is the case I'm quite certain it is incorrect. A Dutch collaborator (Cristiaan Lindemans) does appear to have leaked info but apparently it was rather vague as he only mentioned Eindhoven.

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Said the book isn't about it, it's just a book about military fail.

Bernard Lippe-Biesterfelt was a spy, yes. When teh tommies were already gushing over the idea the Germans were already at it and send in their more able troops, ones we had there so far only worked on our fields they were mere reservists, The ones you got to fight weren't, they were hauled in.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Said the book isn't about it, it's just a book about military fail.

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You did indeed :bow:

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Bernard Lippe-Biesterfelt was a spy, yes. When teh tommies were already gushing over the idea the Germans were already at it and send in their more able troops, ones we had there so far only worked on our fields they were mere reservists, The ones you got to fight weren't, they were hauled in.

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Is there any actual evidence or is it just second guessing? The II SS corps moved into the area before the Market-Garden order was issued by Montgomery. The 9th SS division was actually preparing to send off men and equipment to Germany. That does not sound like the Germans knew much.

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Originally Posted by CBR

You did indeed :bow:


Is there any actual evidence or is it just second guessing? The II SS corps moved into the area before the Market-Garden order was issued by Montgomery. The 9th SS division was actually preparing to send off men and equipment to Germany. That does not sound like the Germans knew much.

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You are wrong they knew everything, why do you think they were there. It i'sn't exactly a secret that Lippe was nazi, as for evidence, very circumstantial. Lots of it.

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Originally Posted by CBR

Is there any actual evidence or is it just second guessing? The II SS corps moved into the area before the Market-Garden order was issued by Montgomery. The 9th SS division was actually preparing to send off men and equipment to Germany. That does not sound like the Germans knew much.

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And Model at first thought it was a mission to abduct him personally.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You are wrong they knew everything, why do you think they were there.

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The II SS corps? To be near an important river crossing while building up their strength. The Rhine was the only barrier they had a chance at defending.

If the Germans knew about it, the British paras would never have been able to gain the northern part like they did. That happened because of surprise and very few troops near the actual bridge.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

And Model at first thought it was a mission to abduct him personally.

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Yes but that is clearly just something he said to cover for their excellent spy net among the Allied ranks...

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Originally Posted by CBR

The II SS corps? To be near an important river crossing while building up their strength. The Rhine was the only barrier they had a chance at defending.

If the Germans knew about it, the British paras would never have been able to gain the northern part like they did. That happened because of surprise and very few troops near the actual bridge.

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Who in their right mind would drop to a place like that, check a Dutch map how do you expect not to be dusted of when they know you are comming. Allies have been fooled.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Who in their right mind would drop to a place like that, check a Dutch map how do you expect not to be dusted of when they know you are comming. Allies have been fooled.

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You should check out "It Never Snows in September: The German View of Market Garden and the Battle of Arnhem, September 1944" by Robert J. Kershaw. The Germans struggled hard to defeat the Allies and were not prepared for the attack.

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Originally Posted by CBR

You should check out "It Never Snows in September: The German View of Market Garden and the Battle of Arnhem, September 1944" by Robert J. Kershaw. The Germans struggled hard to defeat the Allies and were not prepared for the attack.

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They weren't supposed to be there in the first place, some old men but no SS devisions. It was pretty normal having to having to shelter German soldiers, got pictures from them are all dead I guess, all had to go to Russia. My grandma remembers one crying and her mom tried to comfort him after giving him a few cold shoulders at first

Gallipoli, admittedly the intent was logical, but there were so many obvious reasons why it was doomed to go badly, and the ramifications were quite substantial.

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

Gallipoli, admittedly the intent was logical, but there were so many obvious reasons why it was doomed to go badly, and the ramifications were quite substantial.

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Ah Gallipoli now there is a real mess up

ACW. Gettysburg. In particular, Pickett's Charge. One of the few battles that R.E.L handled poorly. He didn't have Jackson any more and his penchant for 'suggesting' a course of action to his Corps commanders rather than demanding proved fatal.

So....Pickett's Charge is the final folly to try and win the battle the old-fashioned Southern way.

Union artillery was better that day.

A more modern example: the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. They came prepared to fight a battle, not a war.

Well, France's behavior in 1939 and 1940 obviously should be at the top of the list. The country had the means and the manpower to defeat Germany.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Well, France's behavior in 1939 and 1940 obviously should be at the top of the list. The country had the means and the manpower to defeat Germany.

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I guess you mean the French & British early offensive that then stalled and waited for Germany to mop up the rest of Poland before coming back west?

How about the Maginot line? Getting quite so spectacularily caught out by changes in millitary doctrine is rare among such closely competing powers (to my knowledge).

My impression of the Maginot line is that it wasn't expected that the germans would bash themselves to death on it correct? They thought more like they would have to go around it and that would give the french time to mobilize and meet the german army head on elsewhere.

The Winter War. Soviet's were overconfident, and poorly led. Thought they could just brush the Finnish aside, and even though they did technically "Win" the war, the gains were negligible compared to the humiliating losses.

I can think of a few.

Isandlwana - Not getting the camp laggard(sp?) up as well as not exactly having a person in charge of the camp (Chelmsford) ran off with a small party to chase some Zulus who were more like shadows. He left his main camp in a somewhat state of disorder which let it to being wiped out as no one knew who was really in charge. Later battles such as Rorke's Drift which had men behind fixed defenses showed how a small unit could stave off large assaults. Another issue was spreading out their defenses too far from the main encampment so that ammunition could not be adequately available to the troopers holding the line. That's all I could remember as I read a book on the battle and it has been sometime since I read up on the battle.

The Battle of the Little Big Horn - Not really much to be said about here.

Yom Kippur War - While I have not been able to read up on this war as extensively as I would like. I do remember that the Egyptians had made if very difficult for the Israelis to use combined arms forces in attempts to dislodge them from their positions after crossing the Suez. Their anti-air and anti-tank umbrella was sufficient to make it difficult for the Israelis to drive them out but then they decided to attack and suffered very badly which in turn gave the initiative back to Israel who then proceeded to drive the Egyptians back. That's about as much as I could remember.

South Ossetian War of 2008 - I'm only saying this because I think the Georgian president thought some one would throw him a line but it ended up not happening. My understanding of the details are a bit hazy, but I vaguely remember that the Georgians could have possibly fought a much better war but totally blew it.

How about some Cold War examples. The era was filled with military miss-steps and unexpected outcomes.

Korea - After almost taking the entire country, North Korean communists faced a huge disaster during the American landings at Inchon. Later, after almost taking the entire country, American forces faced a huge disaster during the Chinese intervention.

Vietnam - Not soon after the French disaster at Dien Bien Phu ended their involvement in the country, American advisors began pouring into the country in an attempt to prop up the unpopular anti-communist Ngo Dinh Diem government. After 17 years of warfare, 60,000 troops killed, and 300,000 wounded, Vietnam eventually fell to the communists.

Afghanistan - In December of 1979, the Soviet Union engaged in what it thought would be a routine suppression of anti-communist forces threatening one of their satellites, a practice the superpower had perfected in Eastern Europe. The resulting intractable conflict cost the nation 15,000 dead and 54,000 wounded. The effects it had on the Soviet system were far more disastrous.

Iran-Iraq War - Backed by America (in reaction to the Iranian Revolution), in 1980 Saddam Hussein invaded Iran with a far more advanced force and hoped for an easy victory. Iran, sometimes having to resort to human wave tactics, beat back the initial assault. Over the course of the next 8 years, both sides launched vicious attacks against each other that resulted in massive casualties but achieved little in actual gains. With a military loss of over 300,000 men, an economic loss of over $600 billion, more than $130 billion in debt, a huge military apparatus, and nothing to show for it - Hussein was in a desperate position, which ultimately led to his next military disaster.

The American Invasion of Canada 1775

Not only did the main body of the army nearly stave to death, or take its objective, but their victory in capturing Montreal was turned to utter ruin by the military governor by alienating even those who would have otherwise been supporters.

Cannae was indeed a roman disaster, if you look at all the historic battles, this battle was surely the one with most casuals. If im not mistaken died there over 70000 romans and around 5000 Carthaginians.

There are some different thoughts about how the battles was fought, the majority claims today, that the drop back in the center of Hannibal's center was intended from start.
His cav got in from the back after some skirmishes vs. the roman cav. Thats it.
The romans was so pressed into each other, that they wasnt able to move hands or swords. It was a 6 hour lasting massacre, it wasnt jsut a loss, this was a splatter killing monster massacre!

Well, hannibal won some battles, but lost the war. Still, this battle was one of the biggest mess-ups in roman history.

Battle of the Crater

July 30th, 1864, after weeks of preparation Union forces blew a hole in the Confederate lines with a massive underground charge. The blast itself was over an hour delayed due to poor quality fuse, and the initial wave of troops had to climb in and out of their own trenches just to reach "no mans land". As the union poured troops into this gap the confederates reorganized and counter attacked. Brig. Gen. William Mahone later called it a turkey shoot as union troops muddled in the crater and were shot down from all sides. It ended with 3,798 (504 killed, 1,881 wounded, 1,413 missing or captured) casualties for the Union and only Confederate 1,491 (361 killed, 727 wounded, 403 missing or captured) casualties for the Confederate troops.

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Originally Posted by Kocmoc

Cannae was indeed a roman disaster

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Yes but does not mean the Romans made serious mistakes. If Veho Nex had called the thread "greatest military disasters" or "losses" then yes Cannae should be there for the Ancient times.

Battle of the Crater can be considered messed up because Meade changed the forces meant to lead the attack. Instead of the black division that had been instructed to go around the crater, an untrained division was to lead instead. On top of that the attack got delayed because of lack of footbridges and general confusion.

“Well, France's behaviour in 1939 and 1940 obviously should be at the top of the list. The country had the means and the manpower to defeat Germany.” I wouldn’t put this as a blunder.
In 1939, the French Army wasn’t up the level.
In 1940, the Air Force just started to receive the modern Dewoitine 520 and other Lioré et Olivier 451 (too late for this one) Morane 406 and Block 152.
The French Generals were out manoeuvred so it can’t be counted as their blunder (except for ignoring the Aerial Recon Pictures showing the concentration of German Tanks in the other side of the Ardennes).
They couldn’t excepted the fall so quick of the Belgium fortress of Eben Emael…

Now, a real French Blunder is Indochina.
The Battle of the border:
That Khe, Dong Khe, Lang Son, Cao Bang. RC4.
These towns and road were the keys point for the control of the Chinese/Vietnameese Borders and became vital for the Vietminh after the fall of Chiang Kai Shek China to the Communist..
The French decided to evacuate Lang Son (after the defeat of the “fortress of That Khe”) withdrawing with all the material, in daylight, and with all the families and refugees fleeing the Vietminh. In the meantime, a column will go to meet them by the road, the Route Colonial no 4. It was a complete disaster, and then, in panic, the same officers decide to evacuate Lang Son, without any noise this time (so no destruction), leaving for the Vietminh enough material to equip 3 Divisions.
My father arriving 2 days after the evacuation and one day before the Vietminh (who was wondering where the French were and feared a trap) was still under the shock when telling me this… All supplies left intact to the enemy…

And of course Dien Bien Phu: by which aberration the French Generals (against the recommendation of the French Government) believed that the Vietminh (on foot) will not be able to move but the French Air Supply will succeed during the rain season is still a question for me.