Pyrrus, elephants, tower

hi all.
i have to point that the elephants in the Epyrus army are untowered.
this is historically uncorrect.
let say this famous story, reported by plutarchus (Life of Pyrrus and Life of Titus Flaminius;) and Livius (XXXV): at the 2nd encounter between Scipio and Hannibal - at Antiochus' Court - , Hannibal said that Pyrrus was one of the best generals BECAUSE -among the others- HE INVENTED THE TOWER FOR THE ELEPHANTS.
so, we should put a remedy on it, isn't it?
moreover, i have to say that it is quite easy, in the beginning of the campaing -as roman, of course- , to get rid of the epirots in Italy.
Pyrrus and his army should be somehow 'enhanced', to make it more challenging.

cheers

They are not untowered.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...n_elephant.gif

Something broken with your install?

wow! these are epyrot elephants? i actually fought epyrots maaany times, and occupied their land completely, and i have never seen them.
i use the EB SUBMOD PACK 3.1, and the mod for BI. could be this the reason?

Not likely.

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Originally Posted by belliger

wow! these are epyrot elephants? i actually fought epyrots maaany times, and occupied their land completely, and i have never seen them.
i use the EB SUBMOD PACK 3.1, and the mod for BI. could be this the reason?

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Can't only be recruited in the far eastern (Indian) lands of the map? Anyone feel free to correct me as I don't often play as Epiros often.

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Can't only be recruited in the far eastern (Indian) lands of the map? Anyone feel free to correct me as I don't often play as Epiros often.

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Level 5 Factional MIC in Ambrakia works fine, too.

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Originally Posted by The Mad Arab

Level 5 Factional MIC in Ambrakia works fine, too.

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OT: Isn't that a bit odd though? I'm certainly not an expert, but weren't Pyrrhus' elephants actually borrowed from Ptolemy II? How can Epeiros recruit elephants if they don't have access to India?

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moreover, i have to say that it is quite easy, in the beginning of the campaing -as roman, of course- , to get rid of the epirots in Italy.
Pyrrus and his army should be somehow 'enhanced', to make it more challenging.

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pyrrus is gone already he spooks around near Pella. And pyrrus was not famous for his garrisons ;) this is 272 BC the year in which he sieged sparta and got killed in argos.

I actually fought those towered elephants, in greece. it was probably the most challenging(numericly even matched) battle against the AI i ever fought but in the end all elephants got killed by a unit of haploi^^(KH)

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Originally Posted by Paltmull

OT: Isn't that a bit odd though? I'm certainly not an expert, but weren't Pyrrhus' elephants actually borrowed from Ptolemy II? How can Epeiros recruit elephants if they don't have access to India?

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True, but IIRC one historian reports that Pyrrhus tried to set up a breeding program, so the team gave Ambrakia access to elephants. Not something I would have done, but only a successful Epeirote player will be able to recruit those anyway.

As for Phyrrus inventing the elephant tower, I doubt it. AFAIK the Indians had been using it long before.

Pyrrhos got his elephants from Antiochos I -- or at least that is what I understand.

We originally gave Epeiros the ability to recruit elephants because of the thought of a breeding being possible. In having done more research on elephants in general, I can safely say that a viable breeding population would be impossible to maintain -- even in modern zoos it is impossible. In light of that, what we do in EB2 will be much different.

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Originally Posted by abou

In light of that, what we do in EB2 will be much different.

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When I see a hot girl I like, I say to myself, "Wow, native spice!" That was the first statement that came to mind when I read this post.

You're getting me all riled up, abou.

Thank for your replies, Ludens and abou. :)

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Originally Posted by abou

Pyrrhos got his elephants from Antiochos I -- or at least that is what I understand.

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This Wikipedia article says Ptolemy II but, of course, Wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source...

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Originally Posted by abou

We originally gave Epeiros the ability to recruit elephants because of the thought of a breeding being possible. In having done more research on elephants in general, I can safely say that a viable breeding population would be impossible to maintain -- even in modern zoos it is impossible. In light of that, what we do in EB2 will be much different.

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Well breeding is possible, that it's impossible in modern zoos is no excuse, what do they have a handful of animals caged up and let to "run wild". A sustainable population of anything I think is in the 300-eds, 340? To avoid inbreeding (obviously that small a population is only so through rigorus control of who mates with who.) And I assume no zoo has that kind of population, in fact I kind of doubt the zoos of the whole world all together get much above that number, but I also assume that good Pyrrus planned to have that number and more if he ever intended of having any number of them in battle.

I doubt whether a Epirote breeding programme would have been a success - it would have been too expensive to maintain a herd of 400-500 elephants. I expect the Epirotes would have only got 40-50 elephants and tried to breed them, with resultant inbreeding problems. Since elephant lifespan is the same as an ancient-world human, 70 years, it would have taken a long time to breed several generations.

A more sustainable method is for Epirus and Seleukia to have a long-standing trade agreement where Seleukia provides Epirus with replacement elephants every year. Or even for professional mercenaries to buy elephants in India, train them in Seleukia, and then hire themselves out to the Epirotes and other Hellenic states. (Very expensive mercenaries, though.)

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Originally Posted by Alrik

Well breeding is possible, that it's impossible in modern zoos is no excuse, what do they have a handful of animals caged up and let to "run wild". A sustainable population of anything I think is in the 300-eds, 340? To avoid inbreeding (obviously that small a population is only so through rigorus control of who mates with who.) And I assume no zoo has that kind of population, in fact I kind of doubt the zoos of the whole world all together get much above that number, but I also assume that good Pyrrus planned to have that number and more if he ever intended of having any number of them in battle.

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No, really -- that's not how it works. There were never any sustainable populations of elephants in captivity. It's insanely difficult to even get animals cycling -- let alone pregnant. Gestation is is approximately 22 months. Bulls in captivity tend not to go into musth either and have decreased libido.

Even with artificial insemination and ultrasonagraphy, zoos have a difficult time. There is no way that anyone short of being in India would have the means or the economics to maintain a viable population of breeding elephants in the Hellenistic era. Even then, in India the elephants would run wild and then be caught and domesticated.

If you compare price / effectiveness ratio they are too luxurious. I have never recruited them before I swim in gold.

I´d normaly say eles are luxurious, too, but there were couple of occasions when i´ve learned to love those beasts. I was playing Epirotes and slowly driving the Romans toward the Alps; my infrastructure in Italy was good, i could train all the units i needed, which were experienced and plenty. But there was one thing i haven´t seen before, at least not on such a scale, when Romani started to use the "shieldwall" abiity of their troops almost constantly if i had phalangitai on the battlefield. Those pesky units, grouped not only tight, but also overlapping with multiple units, figured a way to break my pike line just as a hot knife smoothly goes through butter, and none of my shock units were able to break their morale! I mean, imagine 3-5 units of Princeps, Hastati, and the two allied Saminte units, building kind of "square" and cutting through anything that stood in their way - if you charge with cavalry in that block, no matter how tired they are, it would be caught inside of that block and cut to pieces; Romans won´t break, no way! But - send your elephants in there and rush them through those clever clever guys, and it´s done.... they can´t hold their formation anymore, and since they´re exausted by that time, thats it. You guessed right, i play on BI.exe, and i do not fight with overwhelming odds in my favour, mostly the AI picks fights where it has a small advantage. Of course, there is no excuse for my tactical mistakes, and my stabbornes to want to break the Romans with brutal force of my units, and after fighting a couple of such battles, i didn´t need the eles anymore ( i haven´t fought Romans on BI. with a Hellenistic factions before^^ ), but on that couple of occasions those luxorious beasts were match winners for sure.

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Originally Posted by abou

No, really -- that's not how it works. There were never any sustainable populations of elephants in captivity. It's insanely difficult to even get animals cycling -- let alone pregnant. Gestation is is approximately 22 months. Bulls in captivity tend not to go into musth either and have decreased libido.

Even with artificial insemination and ultrasonagraphy, zoos have a difficult time. There is no way that anyone short of being in India would have the means or the economics to maintain a viable population of breeding elephants in the Hellenistic era. Even then, in India the elephants would run wild and then be caught and domesticated.

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What's to say he didn't intend on giving them ample of space, they are not in zoo's, also in zoo's they are typically in the wrong climate, I do see how sex would not be on the agenda if I was freezing my balls off. Ancient mediterranian would have been prime climate for elephants. Heck they were growing grapes north of the EB map, something you have to go as far south as germany today to do without special equipment, which goes to show that I really don't give a feck about global warming, it's better than the ice age they say we should be entering if we didn't have it.
You forget that back in the day they had a wholly diferent stand to territory and people, I'm sure he could offer the land to breeding elephants and sacrefice the people needed to tame wild ones, pesants are cheap, slaves even more so.

Okay dude, whatever. What do I know? I've got a major in biology and am getting a second degree in veterinary medicine. I've read the papers. If you think you're so right, go ahead and pull out the statistics to find out the basic minimum for a sustainable population in a rocky habitat that provides neither the space nor the food to maintain such a population including factoring in the low birth rates of elephants. Go ahead, I'm waiting.

Notice how I said nothing about weather in my previous post. Not to mention modern zoos have heating and other amenities. And just go ahead and ignore the part about how even the Indian kingdoms did not use breeding populations, but relied on wild ones. That's fine.

hmm, why not script a rather randomized chance (have arround 2.5% to pop up each turn) of "ELEPHANT SALE! DELIVERED DIRECTLY TO AMBRAKIA!" (click show me how to pay 40000 minai and watch those beasts pop up there)

well, that means adding some random event trigger to EBBS, having Epeiros control Ambrakia, and allied with either Seleucid or Baktria. Pop up via advicce

Mind the tone, please.

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

hmm, why not script a rather randomized chance (have arround 2.5% to pop up each turn) of "ELEPHANT SALE! DELIVERED DIRECTLY TO AMBRAKIA!" (click show me how to pay 40000 minai and watch those beasts pop up there)

well, that means adding some random event trigger to EBBS, having Epeiros control Ambrakia, and allied with either Seleucid or Baktria. Pop up via advicce

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Actually that is quite easily (sort of...) doable by "YES/NO"-events. The german Reconquista mod I mentioned a few times already had a random chance for Leon to get a few (very expensive) longbows via smugglers. An event card popped up, saying something like "Do you want to buy some longbows that were ... erm ... brought from England and train some of your men how to use these bows? YES/NO. " As soon as you agreed you "trained some longbowmen" (they spawned in the capital). And if you ever rejected one offer, you never got one again.

But I'm sure the EB team has found a nice solution already*, at least that's what I understand here:

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In light of that, what we do in EB2 will be much different.

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*Or has decided to deny Epeiros the elephants at all. Who knows? :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Mind the tone, please.

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umm, sorry... I just emulate the Internet sale advertisements that use all caps and fill all the screen... sory for thse caps...

Heheh, this guy is hillarious ;)
Just because you can get roosters to screw a suitcase or pigs to hump a fake sows, doesn't mean it's a given, which you state, they can't, or at least have trouble doing even with all their fake gadgets.
I am stating that Pyrruss if he thought it necessary and worth the cost would give the elephants the space needed and as Africa has shown elephants do breed quite well. South Africa has gone from a population 8 k to 20 k in 13 years, just by banning ivory trade and protecting the polulation, though I'm fairly certain that it's easier to hunt the ivory than the poachers.

I'm hilarious? Seriously? You haven't come up with anything to pack up your statements other than ridiculous hypotheticals. You can't magically transport all the elephants you want and give them a proper diet out of nowhere and expect them just to breed and everything is going to be okay -- in Greece, no less. Everything -- everything -- we know about elephant husbandry says that it isn't going to happen. You have an animal that can eat 1-2% of it's bodyweight per day. Multiply that by the number in your herd and it immediately become untenable.

A wild population is different. I've stated that twice now. Not to mention you've removed the competition of poachers and you have a vast ecosystem into which they can expand. You have a base population of 8,000 elephants. That is different than a base population of a few hundred. Unless you come to the table with specific examples, you have nothing. You fail to understand that I have the null hypothesis.

My suggestion is that if you want to actually have this debate, go reading and then come back. I would start with this: Asian elephant : ecology and management by R. Sukumar.

Just to add, even today with quite a bit of funding and added veterinarian expertise the domesticated elephant is dying out in Thailand, Laos etc. Apart from the reasons abou just mentioned, females are often too stressed out (domesticated elephants are used to haul heavy loads such as tree trunks) which basically renders them infertile or otherwise unfit to successfully see out the whole pregnancy. It doesn't help that they tend to be malnourished, though.

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

umm, sorry... I just emulate the Internet sale advertisements that use all caps and fill all the screen... sory for thse caps...

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I don't think he was talking to you.