This poster has been popping up in random places on my uni campus everywhere...

I thought it was an interesting conversation starter about something that we have not talked about in a while, so here it is, taken from my phone (so sorry about the quality):

http://imgur.com/duveL

I am kind of on the fence on the statements there. In the long run, I don't think capitalism will be around for various reasons, but...I don't see the transition happening for at least another 50-100 years.
http://imgur.com/duveLhttp://imgur.com/duveL

What do you guys think of it? Stupid uni students trying to say something profound?

Seems very general. "The world will change".

I do not quite get the point.

It's the NWO, run to your cellar and hide among your guns!

I think it's partly people wanting it to be like that and by putting it out there, they want to make it more likely by making people think about it.
I don't think they really have a vision or can see into the future, they just (over)interprete certain things and then think there may be a bright future ahead after some struggles.

In a way it's like a monetary replacement for religion I guess. Instead of fighting over theology, people shift to fighting over monetary systems and other ideologies that they expect to make their future bright.
As such I am rather neutral, I don't think such a change is very likely but neither is it impossible, things will develop, stuff will happen. :shrug:

holy mother of god it's like Hegel for libertarians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Wallerstein

No doubt someday a system will replace capitalism; probably something that synthesizes capitalism and software. But that's not going to be for a long time.

Right now? We are living in the high noon of of capitalism. Anyone who thinks differently hasn't thought too hard. What's this "different system" the poster refers to? Some marginally different flavor of capitalism or something?

The poster has clear allusions to Karl Marx and his works.

Well we are going through some economic and social turmoil right now. And people always like to try to fit these events into a grand narrative, whether its communism, or fascism, or whatever. Which is why I think those two ideologies will have a bit of a revival in the times to come. It's already kind of happening with the far-right sweeping across Europe.

For the life of me I don't know what to make of it, the world is too complicated. Gah!

The world won't be the same in another 100 years? Wow! Look at the brains on that Einstein!

The world was completely different 100 years ago, of course it will be different in another 100 years. And since the world is better now than 100 years ago, I have no reason to believe it won't be even better in 2111.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The world won't be the same in another 100 years? Wow! Look at the brains on that Einstein!

The world was completely different 100 years ago, of course it will be different in another 100 years. And since the world is better now than 100 years ago, I have no reason to believe it won't be even better in 2111.

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Just like the world was bettern in 600AD than 200BC? And you know what caused the dark ages? Mass migration.

Back then it was the Hun, now it is the Muslims. Who will save Europe?

Now I'm off to take my happy pills...

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

The poster has clear allusions to Karl Marx and his works.

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And Karl Marx was a Satanist, therefore that poster and its ideas are Satanic propaganda.

I imagine some fusion of Thermo-Economics and capitalism will be had eventually prob 200yrs off though.

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

The poster has clear allusions to Karl Marx and his works.

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That was my thought as well. I don't really know anything about Wallerstein (other than what can be learned from a 15 second internet search).

As to something replacing capitalism...I don't know what other options there are other than state control of business - such as in communism or facism. I doubt that we are about to erupt into a state made up of co-operatives.

What I suppose I could see is a possibility for decline in corporatism though...but it is far from clear that this would be inevitable, by any means. There are more groups speaking up against, in particular, large multi-national corporations as being devoid of values (by mandate). But, who is going to take action? It would take either a revolution/uprising or for politicians/governments (Which are funded by those same corporations) to pass laws/treaties that reel in the power of, or regulate these internations corporations. I think things would have to get much worse before you will see a popular uprising against the rich in the West, and I have no faith in politicians...so I would still categorize this in the dreamland category.

The most interesting changes are things that Wallerstein could not likely have forseen. Not worker sufferage and those things, but peak oil, climate change, food and water shortages. These will force many changes, the effects of which remain to be seen. One vision is that they will mandate a change back to local production, de-globalization, and could (if this vision pans out), mean a decline in the economies (including most notably economies of scale) that allow the domination of large multi-national corporations. This is however, only one of dozens of views of the post peak oil world.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Just like the world was bettern in 600AD than 200BC? And you know what caused the dark ages? Mass migration.

Back then it was the Hun, now it is the Muslims. Who will save Europe?

Now I'm off to take my happy pills...

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First off, Horetore didn't say that the world got better, he said that it changed. Which it did, and which he is correct in saying, does nto take a genius to figure out.

As to your comment about paranoia of a new dark ages brought on by the migration of Muslims...

There are a million things that could be discussed in terms of the fall of the Roman Empire, or in regards to other mass migrations which did not destroy all civilization, but I am not in the mood, so let's focus on today...

Right now, fallout from globalization has many populations on the move. It is not just Muslims...in the US they are most concerned about the predominantly Christian latino migrations into the US. East Indian and Chinese persons are also leaving their overpopulated countries. Here in Canada we are seeing large migrations from parts of Africa, and in the past 20 years had large influxes from Vietnam, and Yugoslavia in particular (people fleeing the wars and their aftermath).

Mass Migration is an effect, not just a cause. To blame the migration itself is to ignore the root causes. It is like saying the flood of refugees from Hiroshima caused pressures on the surrounding towns...right, but will you ignore that the cause of the migration was the dropping of an Atomic bomb?

Anyway, there are much bigger pressures coming to challenge us than mass migration. As I pointed out above, peak oil, food and water shortages, general overpopulation of the planet, climate change. Each of which will trigger other migrations as some countries are less able to adapt than others...so brace yourself.

IMHO. University campuses are populated by crazy people. Let me regale you:

A friend and I were quietly minding our own business when a young man came up and sat next to us. After perhaps 5 minutes of sitting there in silence he proceeded to jerk his head violently, twitching his body along with those disturbing movements. Thinking perhaps he had epilepsy I started to move the chairs and tables away from him. He stopped. Looked dead at us, with a mad gleam in his eyes, and said, and I am paraphrasing from memory:

"If you have a gift. A power. A gift. Use it, do not waste it like all those people out there. I can see them. I can perceive. Can you perceive? If you can perceive, I'm not sure you understand, you should use it. I can see the world, I can see things, others cannot. If you have a castle, you do not let it crumble into nothing. You maintain it, you use it."

And with an increasingly frantic pitch:

"You watch, just you watch. I can perceive. In the coming days you will hear my name. You will remember me! 2012 is approaching. Remember me and you will be saved!"

He abruptly stopped and walked away. Then the lecturers in their white dresses and red crosses came out and put my uniform on, not very comfortable mind, strapping my arms tightly, I must ask for a bigger size next time. They ushered me back to the lecture theatre, all soft quilted walls. A lecture theatre per-person! This really is a fantastic uni, we all get our own lecture theatres and the lecturers always stop by to see how we are doing. Although, I must say, they do have some very strange customs here. Why do they insist on shaving my head and pouring cold water over me every day, it really doesn't enhance my learning experience. And strapping me into my bed at night is a bit excessive is it not? Well, I have to go, that's my five minutes of Internet access for the day used up, I don't want the Course Coordinator taking away my cafeteria rights and running electricity through my head!! Bye!

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Just like the world was bettern in 600AD than 200BC? And you know what caused the dark ages? Mass migration.

Back then it was the Hun, now it is the Muslims. Who will save Europe?

Now I'm off to take my happy pills...

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I don't know how the average nobody lived in either 600CE or 200BCE, so how can I comment on that?

All I know are the various empires that rose and fell, but that tells us nothing about the standard of living enjoyed by the masses.

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Originally Posted by Jaguara

First off, Horetore didn't say that the world got better, he said that it changed.

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Huh?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

And since the world is better now than 100 years ago

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Ajax

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Originally Posted by Jolt

And Karl Marx was a Satanist, therefore that poster and its ideas are Satanic propaganda.

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No, but when I saw that it immediately underlined my notion that there is a lot of wishful thinking involved. ~:)

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I don't know how the average nobody lived in either 600CE or 200BCE, so how can I comment on that?

All I know are the various empires that rose and fell, but that tells us nothing about the standard of living enjoyed by the masses.

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It turns out that body height is a good index for standard of living. The taller the people, the better their standard of living. Skeletal remains & census data suggest that hunter gathers lived a life to fairly high standards, roughly equivalent to the people of the early 1950's. Then everything went very badly wrong as people suddenly had to become near-vegetarians eating mostly carbs and other tasteless junk (nowhere near as healthy a diet as that of hunter gatherers). Then it rebounded somewhat during the Dark Ages, with people enjoying a new high, before the Middle Ages properly cut in and then the Renaissance and then Enlightenment and then worst of all the Industrial Revolution.

That there is a perception that everyone “used to be smaller in the past” is because of the Industrial revolution which is the time when a modern Asian factory worker would've been a display of excellent living standards. After the Industrial Revolution settled down a bit with a lot of regulation coupled with advances in agriculture and transport made a more healthy living standard possible once again, growth quickly recovers where 1950 in the Western world marks roughly the break even point with pre-agriculture societies.

Since then, only a few Western societies have actually grown past that point (for instance the USA appears to quickly have hit its ceiling in the 1950s) most notably the Scandinavian ones (which seem to have hit a ceiling in about 1980s) and the Netherlands (which hasn't quite hit the ceiling yet). That's actually been studied quite a bit, and the most plausible explanation is that this is a result of the fact that Scandinavia and the Netherlands have a low income gap between rich and poor (so as the countries as a whole enjoy prosperity, this is reflected in high standards of living for almost everyone) and also some of the best child care in the world.

Lifespan has increased, information access has increased etc particularly for the average person in the last 100 years.

Most of us have access to more information then Roman emperors. Can travel further the Christopher Columbus, and can view more nubile bodies then a Grand Master.

Overall life is better, we don't all get the best, but our average is getting better then those who came before us.

Of course there are other indicators. Such as life expectancy.