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Hey EB vets :-)
Since I 'm finishing my Casse campaing and not intend to carry it on, I was thinking of a "phalanx campaign".I've read so much inside the forum about pikemen and I am intrigued to lead some phalanx armies.
My heart speaks of Macedonia but I expect an easy game with them.What do you prefer and suggest?
Could it be Seleuceia, Ptolemaioi, Epeiros, Pontos, Baktria maybe, or who else?
Please give me reasoning and motives :-P
if you´re like me you will have a hard time leading a phallanx army so my sugestion is that you pick someone who can use thorokitai that leaves macedonia out
you can always go for the reforms in the koinon hellenon and use their elite phallangitai they´ve got great archers skirmishers and decent cavalry + all the hoplitai you´ll ever need
ptolomaioi is a good choice few enemies easy riches in the south (mines) plus alot of sea trade aslong as you can get antiocheia and criple the arche seulekeia you have many places to go
makedonia is in a great position if you play the 1st 2 turns right you can imediatly take athens and sparta by using your heavy cavarly right and then move up north and remove the epirotes from the balkans thanks to the thesally hoplites you can build a nice army to replenish your losses and always keep moving taking over the balkans and their mines and basically using your forts to guard the river passages (i was able to take over all important mining centers by 267bs and by 254bs i had enough to suport 3 armies and go and take nikaia and pergamom wich makes you go to war with the seulekids if not you can just wait for the romans to take patavium and start attacking segestica )
arche seulekeia is for me the most fun campaign they have more troop selection then the getai rich lands that you can explore right if you play your cards right and you must always be pro active trying to remove the ptoleis from mikra asia 1st then try to eliminate the pontus as fast as possible and then go for the hayasdan while trying to survive in hekatompylos and marakanda against the parthians (i always use the massive spam of pantadapoi and slingers to try and survive the early stages while keeping the population under control and avoid revolts) one of the most important things you can do when dealing with the arche is to make sure you always attack 1st particulary the phalavas as not to loose too many aliances at the start and always present those who might threaten you with a strong army on their borders should they decide to "visit" your lands
economicaly you must try and secure the northern eastern mediterranean by removing ptoes from mikra asia dveloping your eastern mining sectors take nikaia and pergamom for your mikra asia mines and if you can remove the hai you´ll get fortunes from the caucasian mountains with a few forts on all major passages you can armour your western and caucasian border leaving your armies (recruited in antioch and mesoptamia) to deal with the ptoly and your eastern armies to nullify the parthian threat
eventually the baktrians will backstab you when that happens have no contemplation just eliminate them with arche seulekeia is a do or die campaign you´ll always be surrounded everyone will betray you it´s hard financially at the start (altough you can get some nice sums of cash at the start by taking peace from the kh ) and you might likely end up fighting wars against the saka phallava baktrians pontians kh makedonia hay and the always hated ptolomaioi all at once
The Seleucids are definitely a good choice; they were my first EB campaign. It's challenging with so many different enemies but on the other hand your lands are rich and you have a great variety of units: I'd advise you to build a small stack of elites in Antioch and use this to take Egypt while sending a second force to seize Tarsus and Side. If you act quickly you will find that the Ptolies are quite weak and unprepared. Once you have Alexandria, Memphis and Thebes they won't be a threat anymore and you can send withdraw your main army. Taking the rebel cities in Asia Minor should be your next step, after which you should target Pontos who usually expand slowly. In the east use Alexandria Ariana as your main base and give up erveything else until you can reconquer them. After this you should be able to beat the Parthians and Baktrians and perhaps even take India.
It depends on what you want, if you wanna have won by the year 260, go for the seleucids and do as the others have suggested.
However, I really gotta suggest either Epeiros or Macedonia. I really prefer their spots on the map more, than the seleucids. With Epeiros or Macedonia you get to fight other Phalanx nations to a greater degree, while you still get to fight various other infantry nations, (Getai, Romans, Carthage, Koinon Hellenon, and perhaps even some gauls). I find Epeiros unit selection to be more fun, than the macedonians though :)
I agree with A Dane here, Seleukids make a good starting challenge and have one of the best and widest troop selection but once you get your money sorted and defeated Hay or Pontos your quite invincible, plus you can autocalc against the Parni and Saka, tho it get's really tough when actually fighing on the battle map^^ - Pikmen kill HAs in autocalc but don't quite stand a large chance in battle mode.
Macedonians and Epirotes make a good game while Epirotes have the more unique roster and afaik are a bit more challengeing. still If I remember correctly you've played the KH already, nor?
in that case and if you feel EBized already Bakrtia would be a good choice, very varied roster the only thing they lack are elite pikemen. but it's more of a challenge imho.
Pontos can also use a lot of pikemen, they lack the pezhetairoi but thier elite pikeman is about as strong^^
I'd suggest either Bartix, or Makedonia. Makedonia ISN'T a walk in the park, although it's probably easier than holding together the Arche, it's probably a bit harder than the Ptolemies, or Epeiros. You start out in a really tight spot as Makedonia, and have to fight two pretty hard battles to keep your empire from crumbling. To your West, Pyrrhos and his large army including indian elephants (!!!) threatens your capital city of Pella, and to the South, the Koinon Hellenon is trying to push you out of Korinthos and Chalkis. You'll need to take out Pyrrhus first thing, and then book it to Korinthos and kick the Koinon out of Athens and Sparte while the Epeirotes are fighting in Italia and licking their wounds in Ambrakia.
Baktria has a difficult start too, but perhaps not quite as bad. If you can keep the Arche from attacking you in the first 5 years, you're probably fine, but if they attack you immediately, you're in for a rough time until you can take the cities along the Indus and the Gedrosian desert. Saka is always a constant annoyance, and can occasionally actually become a real threat to your capital at Baktra, and while the Pahlavans usually stay allied to you until you attack them, they can sometimes backstab you if your capital is left too lightly defended. Additionally, if you leave Pahlava alone and they manage to expand at the expense of the Arche, they can become a real pain to dislodge once you're ready to. I'd recommend taking India and Gedrosia, and then blitzing the Pahlavans so you never have to face cataphract horse archers and heavy cataphract charge cavalry. You have your own cataphract horse, but they're not quite up to snuff with the pahlavans and they're expensive enough that you probably want them soaking up Saka arrows or destroying Seleukid armies instead of being wasted on the (comparatively) minor threat of the Pahlavans.
Klerouchoi Make a pretty good medium pike unit for Pontos, and they're probably the most difficult "pike" faction, if they count.
I've always had a soft spot for Ptolomaioi due to an interest in their history, but they have a rather easier start and not quite as much variety in units as the Seleucids.
Macedonians, Epeiros, and KH (who get pikes late in the game) all have an interesting start, especially if you start off slowly for more of a challenge, but all become somewhat easier as you finish off Greece (migrating KH to Sicily can make for mroe of a challenge) and all have interesting units.
Opinions differ :-P
Well I was thinking of "phalanx spam" armies, you know those 15+ pikemen units stacks, that can be layed across whole battle map (unit size:huge), leaving you no space to manoevre, lol.
Still each nation has its own variations of support units, Macedonia good cavalry, Epirotes good light infantry, etc to take advantage of.
In terms of challenge all sound tempting, except maybe the isolated kingdom of Ptolemaioi who should have lesser and smaller fight fronts.
Concerning the battle area I like Europe better, only thing that bugs me is the high amount of dense forests that gives a LOW visibility in battles.
*KH campaing is finished yes.But I don't think they are a "pikemen nation" because they fight mostly with spearmen. :-P
I was thinking of a nation that has levy pikemen units so I can "phalanx hack" since round 1.Are all those you mentioned such (say Baktria)?
I also liked the "phalanx vs phalanx" potential scenario, still if it involves Minor Asia it might take ages for the game to progress, hehe.
Maybe "phalanx vs Romani" would be interesting (either Macedonia or Epiros) too.
Thanks for commenting, please go on help your fellow EB addict :-)
Just about all of those factions (KH being the prime exception) can recruit phalangites of some sort from day one. Even Pontos gets Pantodapoi Phalangitai, although I'm not sure if their starting settlement can already build them or not.
Macedonia and Epiros have levy pikemen, Ptolemaioi have Machimoi Phalangitai and Seleucids, Baktria, and Pontos have Pantodapoi Phalangitai.
Even Saba can recruit the latter as regionals...
If your main interest is Europe I would think Epiros or Macedonia would be the best bet, maybe Pontos. Ptolemy and Baktria are far off, although in different directions, and a Seleucid campaign is likely to be rather Asia/Egypt focused, unless you purposefully withdraw from the East.
I'll said the best is Epeiros, if you play your cards right, you can immediately take Pella with your Elephants, and then sell Taras for a healthy profit to the Romans (along with ceasefire). Conquer Greece, and make the Makedonians kick the bucket immediately, and you are nigh-unstoppable.
I just need to have it as a national unit, the building can be constructed :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zim
TBH Pontos is really tempting, as it starts in a very difficult location surrounded by AS and Ptolemaioi.I think this campaign has the potential for a really hard challenge and would offer the "phalanx vs phalanx" battles.
Another good candidate is Baktria, on the edge of the EB world, having to cover great distances and some exotic places to meet.The only drawback would be fighting HA armies, would force me to adopt and finally abandon the "phalanx spam" design :-P
Finally the "greek" phalanx nations, Macedonia for an ultimate imperialistic experience and Role Playing, or Epirotes with those beautiful Chaeonion Agemas crushing Pedite and Triarii.
I am in a dilemma I confess, hehe.
MACEDONIA
don't listen to the others in their lack of Heavy Spearmen, you will have plenty of others to guard your flanks. Thorikatai are cool and useful, but not the end all unit.
Macedonia is the originator of the Phalanx, they get to train the Deuteroi which is the best Pike unit in the game when all is factored in. You get to start the Conquests of Philip AND get to fight the Eagle Pyrrhus.
The only other army that can train Deuteroi Pikemen and Agrianne Assault infantry (these guys are awesome) is Epeiros, but Epeiros rides totally on Pyrrhus and to be honest as soon as Pyrrhus dies, i end my Epirote campaign.
Also as Macedonia i'm pretty sure you play as the ancestors of Antigonos the One-Eyed
Macedonia also gets the awesome reformed Pikeman. he wears chainmail and is awesome
If you want a challenge play Pontus. All you need is one upgrade of your factional barracks in Amaseia, while you start with about 6 units of (levy) Pandotapoi Phalangitai. I can´t agree that Macedonian ( or Epirote ) levy phalangitai are "the best". The eastern one ( those Pontus can recruit ) got axes as their secondary weapons - this guys rock even against heavily armoured units. "Classical" Deuteroi are not reliable, in my experience.
Even Hayasdan can recruit pahalngitai, though not as factional, but as regional units, but then all over the territories of Seleuceia and Ptolies.
Oh, and if you want a real challenge, then play on "vh" with Pontus, because then you´ll get a "kick" from all your neighbours ( and even the rebells in Micra Asia might teach you some funny lessons, like they did to me in my last campaign, ambushing my FL, and almost killing him, lol. ). You need H or VH campaign difficulty to allow the AI to take mercs; so, when you see a lonely Seleucid or Ptoleie FM wandering through your lands beware of the possibility beeing sieged next turn ;)
Right now i´m playing Macs, since i wan´t to avoid fighting Romans - i know myself, i´d kill them to fast ( @fomalhaut: as a rule, i´m letting Pyrrhus to end what he started - sack Rome, and destroy Romans before he dies :S ). But if you abandon Taras, as CuteWolf has suggested, you might have some chilling time in Greece etc.
I don't know why you'd quit after Pyrrhus dies. If he had been successful, his sons would have taken control of his empire, obviously. It's kind of like having everything ride on Diodotus I in Baktria, and as soon as he dies, quitting.
because Pyrrhus is really the only person who interests me in that faction, the faction itself doesn't have an endearing qualities to me in history or in game mechanics. they are another western greek faction with the exact same roster as Macedonians + Elephants
And awesome Chaonion Agema, as well. Although they just replace the Argyraspides, so they're not that unique. But they look absolutely stunning. I guess that makes sense, although to be honest no factions have interesting people after the first 50 years, everyone is dead that starts out and new ahistorical characters take the forefront. Epeiros is kind of fun because they're Barbaroi and Greek together, and so I can justify executing large cities and ambushing a lot easier than when I'm playing as say, Makedonia. They're also the only green faction besides the Gauls, if you like to see the world painted green without having your line infantry run like little girls every time they're flanked until 200 B.C. or so as happens with the Celts.
Hey Fomalhaut :-)
I don't mind of heavy infantry support since I am thinking of 'old-school' phalanx tactics, meaning cavalry and light infantry on the flanks.Macedonia fulfills that requirement as it excels in both.It is a VERY strong candidate indeed, for one more reason.It gives you the option to expand anywhere, while Pontus is basically an eastern nation and Epirus would look to strengthen its position on the Peninsula.
Vollorix - well I am quite used to RTW AI gangbanging tactics to the point of addiction ;-)
That's why Pontus is the other option, since I know I would have to put SOME effort to survive.I always play VH and now maybe I change the battles' level as most of you suggest.I imagine though a lot of "defend the bridge" battles, right? Also the most obvious would be to consolidate the Minor Asia's provinces.After that going where? Towards Caucasus or to the rich South, right in the face of AS and Ptolemaioi? :-P
Pontus has some nice mixture of units, plus those dreaded "fire and forget" Scythed chariots.
Finally I will choose one of these two :-)
I would never choose a dirty philhellene over a true blooded Macedonian dynasty and the brave men bred there
don't shame Philp with an army who imitates Macedonian ways but lacks every good quality of them
@Ksifos: Bridge battles ain´t fun ;) You allready know you will gain a heroic victory, you know that the enemy army will be annyhilated, their general won´t escape etc. etc. I´ve played so many Pontus campaigns that after a while you actually know the good places for a battle, and if you follow a predefined strategy you might get out of trouble within the first 5 years with ease. Rushing is the key, but whom and how varies;
- you can kick out the Seleucids from Asia Minor first, then tanke rebell settlements around you - there is no other power ther, Ptoleys are way to passiv, and as long as you don´t wipe out their main enemy too fast and too well, they won´t attack you at all.
- you can grab Ankira and "ally" yourself with the Galatians, quickly build up their local barracks ( costly, takes a while... ) and support your levy phalanx zerg tactics with stylish barbarians, slowly driving Seleucids, and Ptoleys aftrewards, away.
- you can rush Eleutheroi ( well, Ankira is one of those towns ), but Synope ( seetrade, Hellenic units ) and Trabzon ( mines, seetrade ), along with Ani Kmah ( mines ), are quite profitable after you build the infrastructer up.
- mines can be constructed in Mazaka, and 3 chevroned units can be cranked out of there ( slingers, caucasian archers, axemen of any kind, asiatic cavalry ) with lvl3 gouvernment and the Greek temple, and it can be taken on the first/second turn, depending on if your spy can open the doors for your army.
The choice is yours, as is the challenge in the campaign; if you are to fast and to good in battles, you can call Asia Minor yours within 10 years; if you are roleplaying a lot, well... that´s when things are going to become funny ( especially with some rigid houserules :S )
@fomalhaut: I don´t know much about Alexander, aside from general infos, but weren´t the Macs calling themselfs Greeks? At least something Pontic rulers never did, as they were proud Persians; and that´s the way i allways play my campaigns, trying to recreate the Persian Empire rather then conquering Greece - way too unrealistic, and too early in the game ( waiting for Romans to come ). Btw: the Arsakids used to call themself philhellenes too, at least in the earlier phase of their reign ;)
Fomalhaut - lol
Vollorix - if you rush and gather strength the AI will counter that with the infamous 'gangbanging'.All vs you.Have faced that situation dozen of times ;-)
In that case I use any means to defend myself and survive.
For example in my KH campaign, after almost 15 years of non stop battles with Ptolemaioi, when I grabbed Tarsus I had almost immediately AS declaring war and sending 2 to 3 "elite" full stacks" / per turn, so I had to use the bridge and fight back, or else I would be dead :-P
What you say about map stands true, but what is the difference from standing on a mountain top with slingers /archers and the enemy not having a chance to even come close? Just a little ;-)
It's nice what you suggest but not applicable when you 're getting gangbanged :-P
Yes I do roleplay but it's not my primary objective.
PS - I had almost finished my Casse campaign (only the last town of Aedui ws left, still heavily fortified) when Romani unleashed all their power towards me,lol.And now I am stuck fighting those @$*&# Pedite around the Alps.Bad fortune for them fresh british armies are coming through the channel :-P
Pontos is nice, but I wouldn't play it for the Phalanx vs Phalanx fights, as they really don't measure up. You got your levy pikemen, and you got your elite pikemen. The levy pikemen are decent, but get torn to pieces in an outright fight with any medium phalanx. Your "elites" are.. well, they're bad. In my experience (Pontos is the nation I've played the most), they're not much better than the medium pikemen the seleucids throws at you. And yes, this is even on medium.. Still an amusing campaign, I just found my self to be using other units than my pikemen :/
I'd really go for Epeiros, you can whipe out Macedon from mainland Greece, and hopefully they'll take over Asia minor, so you can get some pikemen action over there as well. If not, either the Seleucids or the Egyptians will be there to duke it out with you :)
(you could do it with Macedon too, I just find their units to be uninspirering :s)
selling taras ? the blasphemy furthermore tara is 75% of your tax income if you´re already crippled at the start as epeiros economically (and yes you can take pella and demetrias on the very 1st round if you use your elephants right and wait for the right time to charge the maks in the back and always but always when charging with the elephants make sure they are guarded by the illiryan cavarlryman they´re indepensable and one the enemt routs they mop up all the enemies before they reach the town square)
selling tara is a mistake and as i said use phyrros the elephants and whatever unit you can use to take demetrias and pella and send alexander to taras if you survive there he will be one of your 2 best generals once phyrrus dies (him and ptolomaios)
the thing with epeiros is learning proper siege strategies open 3 holes on the wall send in the kelts or some other lighter unit to gain time as you place your phallanx pull back the lighter troops let all units be fighting against the phallanx place your elephants escorted by the illiryans and then kick them in the back trunk style and they´ll rout you can also use your general for the escort and mop them up duty´s but make sure skirmishers are either engaged or eliminated don´t let them near your ellies while they can still shoot (in rebel barbaroi setlements this is more problematic since there´s no squared city´s and it can be dificult to concentrate them all against one phallanx with a hole on the wall for you to pass your ellies by)
epeiros is a fun campaign but you might take longer to take control and operationalise your balkanic mines (more economical problems then for instance kh and maks) also after you take demetrias go for peace with makedonia they´ll keep each other busy and won´t attack you (i´ve been able to keep peace with kh for 50 years because makedonia is still in control of chalkis)
in italy your main duty is to survive once you take the balkans you can start concentrating on italy by ferrying your units over to italy and trying to take as fast as possible sicily particulary syracuse who will be your main recruitment center (on huge man power is very important you will have to take akontistai around the balkans to allow your city´s to reach 2k population so you can develop your mining activities so plan head and plan well because that shifting of population around costs money that might make you loose alot of turns in mine building)
once syracuse is taken you´ll be able to reigh supreme since they should enable you to recruit thureporoi and deutoroi from turn 1 wich with taras will grant you enough manpower to face rome
as for makedonia and despite what a few people said once you´re 50 years into the campaign all the cdtc and the dificulty of winning with phallanxs will make the throkitai invaluable since you´ll want to start autoresolving batles and thats where they´re the most precious babies (altough in batles you fight they can hold the line for your agrarians and thrakians and gallothracians to flank)
i understand fully well the allure of makedonia you can take athens on turn 1 (just used a few men from chalkis to siege the city and they´ll sally out altough i prefer the hold siege it with your faction leader and the thessaloy and charge them down the hill after your akontistai and slingers have weaken them you can call you in the mediums altough i prefer to use them with your corinthian army to take take sparta the batle beteween corinth and sparte is all about proper cavarly use so all cavarly you can call in is invaluable to win that fight and once you do you can take sparte by turn 3 ) you can protect pella with the original general akontistai and a unit of deuteroi (you can also leave a unit of thessaloy there and try to hunt down and kill phyrrus from the start use the thessaloy to attack phyrrus retreat to a place where phyrrus will have his back to one of the shooting towers and use swords meanwhile leave your general in position if he tries to pull back use the general to hunt him down) another trick is to keep running around the city walls and let the epirote bg´s die by arrows but then he tens to escape another one is after weakaning just charge them in the back with your general (use the thessaloi to tire them and weaken them) and run them down tired(exausthed) epirote bg´s will be easily caught by fresh makedonian bg´s
as for the ellies just place the akontistai with shooting at will off and wait for the ellies to come into range if it works well 80% of the time the ellies run amok before they can breach the gate if not it´s a matter of how your deutoroi will fare and for how long
You know, once I started using Alexander with EB, I almost never get crashes even 100 or 200 years into the campaign. I had some issues with unofficial mods, but those are cleared up too. I recommend Alex.exe with L3z's modpack until Jirisys' is 100% stable.
Here's my way to play Epiros. Basically never fails. I'll also quantify it, by saying that you absolutely do not need to follow up taking all of Greece with the rampage through Italy. Once you have Pella, Dem, Ambrakia, Epi,Sparta, Corinth,Chalkis and Athens (as early as turn 5), you'll be rolling in cash.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonburn
You can then continue very slowly, even disbanding most of your army in Ambrakia to add quick pop.
ON TOPIC, my fave Phalanx nation is Mak. Just avoid war in the west with Rome at all costs, as they are the bulldog that won't let go...
True that. Without blitzing them the Romans are one of my top 3 most annoying factions to fight, right beneath Arche Seleukeia and Saka Rauka. I'd rather fight Sauromatae than Romani... And I DON'T like fighting Sauromatae.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewski
Really? I'd prefer fighting the romans every day. In my carthage games the iberians are always a bigger nuissance than the romans, and as anyone east of italy, the insane might of either Arche or Ptollies will eventually come to stomp on you. And if they fail once? They just stomp harder.
In essence: if they don't have pikes, I'm not really worried. (Although I'll agree, that the Sauromatae can be annoying)
I prefer Epeiros. I've always had a soft spot for Pyrrhos and they also have an interesting starting position and some great units. I like the fact that they have both Agranian Assault Infantry and Thorakitai, I don't think any other faction has access to both of them. They also have the Illyrian regionals, which may not be great units, but I do enjoy them, and the Illyrian Light Cavalry in particular are suprisingly good (they have great stamina and speed and they also have AP axes which means they can take on heavier cavalry quite well when microed correctly). Plus, Epeiros technically has the best elite phalanx in the game (Chaion Agema), although it is only true by one attack point over the Agryaspides I think.
Epeiros also makes for an interesting and fairly difficult early game if you do not solely blitz Greece and ignore Italy. I would suggest trying to hold Taras against the Romans; 1. because it is possible, and 2. because it is more fun than just giving it up. You can take Pella and Demetrias with less than the full army that you start with in Greece, so I would suggest sending some units to Italy. I usually take the Illyrian Light Cav (the Romans generally have no good counter to this fast cav early on) and the Illyrian levy spearmen for simple numbers. Then recruit Levy Hoplites in Taras to fill out your battle line, they can hold quite well from the front. Just remember that you are not trying to push back the Romans yet, just hold them in the mountain passes and make your move later once you've consolidated Greece.
Plus, Epeiros has the most epic faction intro video ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs8wtEw77yY
How come Epeiros having the BEST elite pikemen unit in the game? Shouldnt that be Macedonia as the originators of the unit? Does this fact stands historically true? :-oQuote:
Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII
Great Vid really enjoyed it :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII
Are these supposed to play when you start each faction's campaigns? Because all I get is a marble tablet with a "Europa Barbarorum".
Pyrrhus maybe reformed it much better? who knows
Well, they're an Epeirote take on Argyraspides, the developers probably thought that they had equivalent training and equipment but maybe a little extra bit of ferocity justifying a +1 attack bonus, since they're Barbarian Greeks really. Also the Argyraspides have a huge area of recruitment, I don't think the Epeirote Chaionon Agema has the same AoR.