German E. Coli Outbreak

Dose anyone find it odd that the first known hemorrhagic E. Coli outbreak seems to be a recombinant form of two E. Coli strains, one from central Africa?

As European farmers are not in the habit of importing Central African cow flops for fertilizer how would it show up?

That it has shown up as a particularly virulent strain which is highly drug resistant also raises questions.

Bacteria may mutate but normally they need to be in the same proximity to do so.

The illness has not been traced to a source. Not a single source, but a source.

Could it have been broadcast some how?

These bacterium are the microbial equivalent of lab rats.

Is this like the anthrax outbreak in the US in 2001?

Could it be the same people?

Dose anyone else find this sort of thing a bit suspicious?

Too early to tell, but those are definitely questions that need answers; of which I'm sure someone in Germany/EU/NATO is trying to figure out, just don't want to cause a panic if it turns out to be something more benign.

Few deaths among hundreds of sick not that bad

a secret nazi bio-weapon stash is exposed accidentally maybe?

I agree with Fisherking's line of questioning in the OP. This seems too well designed a bacteria to be a random mutation. I guess Iran is taking full advantage of the distractions in Libya, Yemen & Syria.

But if you dont tell people you did wat use is it???? if you ask me nature is well capable of designing perfect diseases itself.

This. Until we know otherwise I'd assume that a few African E coli got a lift to Germany and mutated in their new hosts.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I agree with Fisherking's line of questioning in the OP. This seems too well designed a bacteria to be a random mutation. I guess Iran is taking full advantage of the distractions in Libya, Yemen & Syria.

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How much do you know about bacteria to come to that conclusion, not that it isn't possible but please can we get beyond the 'jews poisened the wells'. There is evidence where? And for what really, normal flue kills thousands each year every time

Fair point, I lack sufficient evidence to say Iran specifically, but it does appear to me to be a designed biological agent:

1) It's a mutated form of an E.Coli bacteria that's not found in Central Europe normally.
2) It specifically mutated in ways that made it resistant to most known anti-bacterial agents, even though anti-bacterial agents are nowhere near as prevalent in Africa as they are in Central Africa, from which this strain originated (seems odd that a bug would genetically select resistance to a threat it hadn't seen before)
3) By all accounts, it appears to be a particularly virulent strain, and spreading fast.

As for why nobody's taken credit, wouldn't they want to wait until it's actually gotten a little bit widespread... give the bug a headstart on the CDC (or whatever that would be in Europe).

I mentioned Iran specifically, because they possess the biotech industry necessary for making designer bacteria and if I remember correctly, they made a threat along these lines back in 2004/2005 (I need to go do my homework and find the citation for that).

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Fair point, I lack sufficient evidence to say Iran specifically, but it does appear to me to be a designed biological agent:

1) It's a mutated form of an E.Coli bacteria that's not found in Central Europe normally.
2) It specifically mutated in ways that made it resistant to most known anti-bacterial agents, even though anti-bacterial agents are nowhere near as prevalent in Africa as they are in Central Africa, from which this strain originated (seems odd that a bug would genetically select resistance to a threat it hadn't seen before)
3) By all accounts, it appears to be a particularly virulent strain, and spreading fast.

As for why nobody's taken credit, wouldn't they want to wait until it's actually gotten a little bit widespread... give the bug a headstart on the CDC (or whatever that would be in Europe).

I mentioned Iran specifically, because they possess the biotech industry necessary for making designer bacteria and if I remember correctly, they made a threat along these lines back in 2004/2005 (I need to go do my homework and find the citation for that).

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1: Todays interconnected world renders such ideas mute Aids came from Africa now it's worldwide and is so well designed they aint found a cure yet.

2: Many bugs have evolved lately to be resistant to drugs like MRSA etc etc

Until I hear otherwise I will be keeping my tinfoil hat safely in the cupboard.

@Don Corleone, we can wipe out everything arab allready, their death ist's just a choice we can make allready, Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft .

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Originally Posted by Fragony

@Don Corleone, we can wipe out everything arab allready, their death ist's just a choice we can make allready, Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft .

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What does that even mean??????

Stop press world not ending Rate of E coli infection has fallen

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Fair point, I lack sufficient evidence to say Iran specifically, but it does appear to me to be a designed biological agent:

1) It's a mutated form of an E.Coli bacteria that's not found in Central Europe normally.
2) It specifically mutated in ways that made it resistant to most known anti-bacterial agents, even though anti-bacterial agents are nowhere near as prevalent in Africa as they are in Central Africa, from which this strain originated (seems odd that a bug would genetically select resistance to a threat it hadn't seen before)
3) By all accounts, it appears to be a particularly virulent strain, and spreading fast.

As for why nobody's taken credit, wouldn't they want to wait until it's actually gotten a little bit widespread... give the bug a headstart on the CDC (or whatever that would be in Europe).

I mentioned Iran specifically, because they possess the biotech industry necessary for making designer bacteria and if I remember correctly, they made a threat along these lines back in 2004/2005 (I need to go do my homework and find the citation for that).

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if this were a custom biological agent why go for something with such a limited transmission means?
there are lots of other choices that would do a lot more damage and are air or person to person transmissible..

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Originally Posted by Ronin

if this were a custom biological agent why go for something with such a limited transmission means?
there are lots of other choices that would do a lot more damage and are air or person to person transmissible..

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I'm guessing it's maybe connected to a water supply somewhere, it would make sense the person would end up infecting the food by washing it and even if its cooked the bug is all over there hands.

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I guess Iran is taking full advantage of the distractions in Libya, Yemen & Syria.

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Well..Ahmadinejad has had some other concerns recently.

Gentlemen, E. Coli is a gut bacteria found in all warm blooded animals.

As a contaminant it is a fecal form usually contaminating a substance by the use of raw animal fertilize.

But it is not from Germen crops. They have not found how it was spread or any produce it came from.

30% of those contracting this strain suffer from kidney failure. The normal rate for bad E. Coli infections is around 1%. Typically these are in the very young and very old, but not so in this case. This outbreak seems to be affecting mostly otherwise healthy adults. It also manufactures at least two different toxins making it even more difficult to treat.

These are the organisms that one would work with in a sort of ‘Gene Splicing 101’.

The verbiage of calling it recombinant is also significant. Call it a code word for outside manipulation, if you will.

It is hard to say, only 18 people have died. 18 people have died but ICU beds in hospitals in the north of Germany are full. It is a critical situation.

Someone needs to look at labs known to be working with this strain and see what they have done.

I don’t know how or why this happened but the natural mutation explanation just does not wash.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

What does that even mean??????

Stop press world not ending Rate of E coli infection has fallen

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Means keyboard faillure it sometimes does that, it changes the layout

Cook your ground beef, sear your steaks

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

But it is not from Germen crops. They have not found how it was spread or any produce it came from.

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That they have not found the source does not mean that German crops cannot be the source. I read statements from the RKI (Rober Koch Institutes) that in many cases of these outbreaks the source could never be identified.

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I don't know how or why this happened but the natural mutation explanation just does not wash.

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In times of global exchange of goods it should not be that surpirsing to see such a case ocurring naturally. Lots of ways that this can happen - not necessarily involving the import of cow dung from Africa or anything "man-made".

I, for one, blame freak food, ultra-capitalism, retreating governments, Big Food and Big Pharma. We need closer inspection and more regulation of what goes in in every step of our food chain.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

please can we get beyond the 'jews poisened the wells'.

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Awesome. I guess in the olden days now would be the time to burn some Jews in places that have been affected. And to pogrom them in places that haven't just to be safe rather than sorry.

This being the 21st century, I suggest we burn Hax at the stake.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I, for one, blame freak food, ultra-capitalism, retreating governments, Big Food and Big Pharma. We need closer inspection and more regulation of what goes in in every step of our food chain.

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Sounds great till you remember that coliforms live naturally in humans and it can often be your own fault for simply not washing your hands.

My ten euro with paddy power is staying on the water somewhere being infected, it could easily have been transferred to the restaurant being mentioned lately in the news by a customer before they ever felt sick.

Ah well there goes my ten euro German Beansprouts 'Behind E.coli Outbreak'

Course it could turn out to be another dead end like the Spanish cucumber craic.

Looks like it's a bad batch of kraut sprouts. See what ya get for trying to eat healthy.:sweatdrop:

Bean sprouts might be responsible for bacteria: officials

interestingly if you read this from AFP near the bottom there sort of hinting it may be due to the proliferation of biogas and manure digesters on farms today.

If thats true it's the ultimate irony that a country obsessed with renewable energy and it's safety may have inadvertantly killed people in the rush to develop supposedly clean safe energy.

The backroom never disappoints when it comes to whacky conspiracies.

I'm sorry, but this being a terrorist action has to be one of the whackiest theories I have heard in my life, on par with the truthers or birthers. Sorry Don C.

I'll only adress one of the gaping flows though: that of an african bacteria having trouble getting to Europe. Globalization and the Free Market wants to have a chat with you, Don C...

Bacteria will take in even bare DNA from the environment. They are constantly swopping and changing. Coupled to this, we only know a tiny fraction of all the different types out there. Other virulent strains came out of nowhere without the need for Iran-Mossad-Mafia-CIA conspiracy.

Where it came from I've no idea. But as a ploy to drag the developed world to its knees cucumbers is a very random of doing it.

Or is that we are supposed to think...? I need to get my tinfoil hat.

~:smoking:

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Awesome. I guess in the olden days now would be the time to burn some Jews in places that have been affected. And to pogrom them in places that haven't just to be safe rather than sorry.

This being the 21st century, I suggest we burn Hax at the stake.

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Well, at least it'll burn the bacteria out of me.

Sorry, if it was on bean sprouts it didn’t get there from fertilizer.

The primary host for the original, unmutated /unmodified strain were goats.

It was only known in the some of the remoter areas of Central African Republic and it was no great threat.

To understand the difficulty of it showing up as it did have a look at the Central African Republic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic

It is not a hub of world trade and goat dung is not a going trade item. Nor are Africian Cattle, a secondary host.

Its largest European trading partners are France from whom it exports 13.6% of trade, and Belgium from whom it imports 9.8% of its goods.

It is not a food exporter. Though food stuffs are the staple of the economy, it is locally consumed.

It is not a tourist destination.

While you may explain away an exotic contagion from travelers, it is a very different matter when it shows up in fresh salads in a country that has no links to the contaminant.

This is not so easily explained. Rather, the explanation is more for the simple.

It needs a much better explanation than what we are getting.

Who handled the crop? Is it possible that one of the farmhands came from somewhere in Central Africa? That is a possibilities as well, our own E. Coli outbreaks often start from migrant workers, and poor working conditions.

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Sorry, if it was on bean sprouts it didn’t get there from fertilizer.

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Wny not? have you ever grown anything like in your back garden, this spring/early summer has been fairly dry and slurry spread on the land could well hold coliforms in it.

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The primary host for the original, unmutated/unmodified strain were goats.

It was only known in the some of the remoter areas of Central African Republic and it was no great threat.

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Means nothing the primary host for many disease is a another animal, but it still does not stop it jumping the species barrier.

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To understand the difficulty of it showing up as it did have a look at the Central African Republic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic

It is not a hub of world trade and goat dung is not a going trade item. Nor are Africian Cattle, a secondary host.

Its largest European trading partners are France from whom it exports 13.6% of trade, and Belgium from whom it imports 9.8% of its goods.

It is not a food exporter. Though food stuffs are the staple of the economy, it is locally consumed.

It is not a tourist destination.

While you may explain away an exotic contagion from travelers, it is a very different matter when it shows up in fresh salads in a country that has no links to the contaminant.

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None of this is relevant in the slightest, Aids probably came from some small monkey at a time when we didnt do much trade with the Congo region either yet it still got out. The fact is this could easy travel from the C.A.R. with no symptoms by a traveller or through a myraid other reasons, but I bet you a pound to a penny that this could easy have developed quite happily in Germany as travel from the C.A.R.

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This is not so easily explained. Rather, the explanation is more for the simple.

It needs a much better explanation than what we are getting.

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The simple explantion is that E-Coli in it's many forms is what know as Zoonotic when we were young there was an outbreak of orf and the vet was not long in telling us to be careful with it and crucially it could survive in soil increasing reinfection chances just like e-coli can.

With E-coli there is a million reasons it could be in Germany and yes your right it COULD be a terrorist attack but the likelyhood of using a disease that can be fought by just washing your hands suggests were safe enough claiming natural sources for this.