Hate for Israel is hating it's succes?

Talking about gutmensch not the muslims. Never understood the collective outrage of the European left about Israel while they are united in silence when things far more horrible happen in non-Israeli parts of the world, it's taken for granted it doesn't interest them. There has got to be a reason for that. Read an interesting article that boldly tries to understand leftist logic.

Fact, Israel is by far the most succesful country in the region. It's heaps above all others technologically, financially, intellectually, everything-actually. And no matter how much they try to financially help the Palestinians it's of no use.

Is it a existional problem that cultures just aren't equal even when given the same chances. Gutmensch wouldn't be 100% right and there's something deeply wrong about that?

well, the end of time prophecy will be completed by Israelis rebuild their temple, despite all the outside obstacle. When Jesus comes again, just remember to ask him.

Pff, the problem with your argument is that Israel isn't a success story.

Yeah, it's technologically superiorto most of it's neighbors, but that's not surprising considering really large parts of the population aren't natives but migrated there from other first world countries.
It's a bit like saying the american settlers were technologically superior to the "indians", true but hardly a big surprise.
Dubai also has some really big and modern buildings but the architects weren't natives AFAIK, these countries import technology and knowledge.
Not that that's wrong but the technology is not their direct achievement.

If you look at the ultra orthodox jews you could even say it's religiously on a similar level to that of it's neighbors, maybe not on the whole spectrum but on average, Israel has people who throw stones at christian visitors purely because of religious differences, hardly advanced or enlightened.
And then they still haven't managed to stop being at constant war with their neighbors and their attempts to build settlements on land that isn't theirs are kinda medieval as well.
While Europe has gone from TotalWar to being peaceful, allied, with flourishing trade(if we ignore cucumbers) and cooperation, Israel has managed hardly any progress in roughly the same timeframe.
Different situation of course and you can blame their neighbors all you want but just surviving through violence is not progress. One kind of progress could be convincing it's neighbors of it's own enlightenment and convincing them to join in and work together but Israel consistently fails to achieve that, think of the American occupation of Germany that inspired our country, turned us into capitalist peaceniks etc.
That wasn't achieved by brutally keeping us down, it was achieved by investing into us, by helping us get up again etc., something that Israel does not even do with the neighbors that are at it's feet.

Just because a country has better tanks than it's neighbors you can't say it's a success story.

Yah, I actually think Israel is in terrible danger right now, largely due to Likud. Remember the saying, "Any strength can turn into a weakness"? The current Israeli administration seems to be determined to prove that principle.

I am particularly gobsmacked by Israel's casual destruction and subversion of its (strategically vital) relationship with Turkey. Amazing.

Inb4 Israel DoW's Iran

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Originally Posted by Husar

While Europe has gone from TotalWar to being peaceful, allied, with flourishing trade(if we ignore cucumbers) and cooperation, Israel has managed hardly any progress in roughly the same timeframe.

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That's false, Israel has active trade agreements with countries such as Jordan and it is the most agricultural centre (technology wise) which it a very good trading partner to the nations.

However, on the political scale, there are still the issues.

The problem with Israel is the same problem that many mexicans would have back in the war where they took their land because of war.

Israel doesn't deserve any land if it wasn't conquered by them. I never saw a revolt with success, only Americans bullying the other countries because of the interests of the newly formed country.

I am not in favour of Palestine either, there should not be a state for the jewish, neither a state for the muslims.

~Jirisys ()

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Originally Posted by jirisys

The problem with Israel is the same problem that many mexicans would have back in the war where they took their land because of war.

Israel doesn't deserve any land if it wasn't conquered by them. I never saw a revolt with success, only Americans bullying the other countries because of the interests of the newly formed country.

I am not in favour of Palestine either, there should not be a state for the jewish, neither a state for the muslims.

~Jirisys ()

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How is America involved in the 1948 War of Independance? What does this even have to do with the USA? The American-Israeli alliance has little to do with the success of Israel as it only really started to be excercized to its full extent after Israel had already secured its position in the Six Days War.

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Originally Posted by Populus Romanus

How is America involved in the 1948 War of Independance? What does this even have to do with the USA? The American-Israeli alliance has little to do with the success of Israel as it only really started to be excercized to its full extent after Israel had already secured its position in the Six Days War.

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Throughout the Roosevelt and Truman administrations, the Departments of War and State recognized the possibility of a Soviet-Arab connection and the potential Arab restriction on Oil supplies to the US, and advised against U.S. intervention on behalf of the Jews.[12] With continuing conflict in the area and worsening humanitarian conditions among Holocaust survivors in Europe, on 29 November 1947 and with US support, the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 181, the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, which was to create Jewish and Arab states and take effect upon British withdrawal. The decision was heavily lobbied by Zionist supporters, which Truman himself later noted,[13] and rejected by the Arabs.

Well, while it's true that American relations were late, it's decision and that of the UN (and particularly Britain) helped the state of Israel to emerge. Though after the holocaust, I wouldn't blame anyone to do so, but it's humanitarian purpose was tampered with the fact that they were going to kick out a whole population in order for another to be there, just because the UK owned the land.

~Jirisys ()

Israel created its oasis of a modern Western Democracy out of the hard work and strong wills of its residents. I didn't see any american troops in Israel in any of its wars. They created there nation despite the racism and bigotry that surrounds them. Because I don't think alot of administrations and residents of the middle east like the Israelis very much.

Also Husar Israel is vastly superior to other Middle East nations im not sure how much contention that fac tis under.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Israel created its oasis of a modern Western Democracy out of the hard work and strong wills of its residents. I didn't see any american troops in Israel in any of its wars. They created there nation despite the racism and bigotry that surrounds them. Because I don't think alot of administrations and residents of the middle east like the Israelis very much.

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Modern Western Democracy. I like how people smear those words around as to say that it's the best thing in the world. Truth is, Democracy doesn't really bring anything good. Just change every certain period of time. A president screws up, it's not fault of democracy, but of the person itself and it's interest. Thing is, if a tyrant is bad, well, they're screwed. That's the big difference.

You don't need american troops in Israel to state that it has become a fabrication aided by US interests and money. It's clear in more recent events than in the early days.

Israel superior to other middle east nations? With it's great intelligence service, one that does not assassinate people in foreign countries. Closing their borders with walls. Gunning down men who cross the border. Also they seem to have good xenophobic sentiments against muslims, kinda like it's the opposite in muslim countries.

Funny thing is, Israel is actually a great country. Though, same with the US, it has a great track record of pissing people off.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Also Husar Israel is vastly superior to other Middle East nations im not sure how much contention that fac tis under.

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But if you need to compare Israel with Palestine or Syria to conclude “Israel is a success” you've rather devalued the meaning of success IMO. :no:

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Israel created its oasis of a modern Western Democracy out of the hard work and strong wills of its residents. I didn't see any american troops in Israel in any of its wars. They created there nation despite the racism and bigotry that surrounds them. Because I don't think alot of administrations and residents of the middle east like the Israelis very much.

Also Husar Israel is vastly superior to other Middle East nations im not sure how much contention that fac tis under.

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There are so many wrongs in that, that I do not even know where to begin. I guess I have to just wing it.

1. No, Israel did very much not create anything, it was gifted to them after WWII.

2. You might be right about not seeing any US troops - but how about US jets, weapons, ammo.. It might come as a surprise to you, but support is not only measured in troops.

3. As to the the.. Nah, I can not be bothered.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Talking about gutmensch not the muslims. Never understood the collective outrage of the European left about Israel while they are united in silence when things far more horrible happen in non-Israeli parts of the world, it's taken for granted it doesn't interest them. There has got to be a reason for that. Read an interesting article that boldly tries to understand leftist logic.

Fact, Israel is by far the most succesful country in the region. It's heaps above all others technologically, financially, intellectually, everything-actually. And no matter how much they try to financially help the Palestinians it's of no use.

Is it a existional problem that cultures just aren't equal even when given the same chances. Gutmensch wouldn't be 100% right and there's something deeply wrong about that?

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I'm absolutely amazed and happy with how the Israelis managed to develop their barren land in a way never seen before, including being surrounded by enemies. Their success is brilliant. However, that is largely besides the point of why I don't like the State of Israel.

However, since I recently did a paper on US External Policy on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I came across something cute that I wasn't aware of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity_in_Israel

Apparently Israelis weren't as good wealth creators out of the nothing as I thought. Likewise, when stuck in a situation where help was hindered and the land produced very little, they also suffered from a very frail economy with no investment, importing most of what it consumed and exporting very little, and financing its expenses on credit. They weren't spontaneously successful just by having created the State. Obviously once they started getting more and more aid, they had financial margin to do projects that otherwise wouldn't be feasible.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

There are so many wrongs in that, that I do not even know where to begin. I guess I have to just wing it.

1. No, Israel did very much not create anything, it was gifted to them after WWII.

2. You might be right about not seeing any US troops - but how about US jets, weapons, ammo.. It might come as a surprise to you, but support is not only measured in troops.

3. As to the the.. Nah, I can not be bothered.

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1. And they then promptly were forced to fight a war for their fledgling nation. Also simply being given land does not equate to having a functioning nation.

2. I am well aware of the extensive logistical support of the US and how many US made weapons of war the Israelis use. I am also well aware of the extensive production of weapons the Israelis produce themselves. This coupled along with the fact that their neighbors were also heavily supplied by national governments (Egypt had Soviet trainers and extensive gifts of equipment) is good to point out.

3. Then I can't be bothered to point out where you are incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

I'm absolutely amazed and happy with how the Israelis managed to develop their barren land in a way never seen before, including being surrounded by enemies. Their success is brilliant. However, that is largely besides the point of why I don't like the State of Israel.

However, since I recently did a paper on US External Policy on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I came across something cute that I wasn't aware of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity_in_Israel

Apparently Israelis weren't as good wealth creators out of the nothing as I thought. Likewise, when stuck in a situation where help was hindered and the land produced very little, they also suffered from a very frail economy with no investment, importing most of what it consumed and exporting very little, and financing its expenses on credit. They weren't spontaneously successful just by having created the State. Obviously once they started getting more and more aid, they had financial margin to do projects that otherwise wouldn't be feasible.

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I daresay nearly nobody is instantaneously successful when creating something from next to nothing. If you look at the US you can see they developed much of their initial infrastructure from the help and money of the British and as a young nation borrowed ridiculously high amounts from European nations. Not to mention the barren waste that much of Israel is.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

1. And they then promptly were forced to fight a war for their fledgling nation. Also simply being given land does not equate to having a functioning nation.

2. I am well aware of the extensive logistical support of the US and how many US made weapons of war the Israelis use. I am also well aware of the extensive production of weapons the Israelis produce themselves. This coupled along with the fact that their neighbors were also heavily supplied by national governments (Egypt had Soviet trainers and extensive gifts of equipment) is good to point out.

3. Then I can't be bothered to point out where you are incorrect.

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1- They only fought a war because they were given the damn land without caring for the original residents, which then manage to grow a mutually beneficial xenophobia.

It's like getting someone to own 1/3 of your house just because the government said so. I'd be ******* pissed at both of them.

2- Yeah, so? It's not programming language here. The extent of help is much more vast for the Israelis than the palestinians.

Just to point out. Their intelligence agency is one similar to the KGB, except... More liked. And whenever you question them, you die.

3- I am not bothered to point out the point when you could have said "whence".

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

I daresay nearly nobody is instantaneously successful when creating something from next to nothing. If you look at the US you can see they developed much of their initial infrastructure from the help and money of the British and as a young nation borrowed ridiculously high amounts from European nations. Not to mention the barren waste that much of Israel is.

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I daresay that either. But, funnily, both the US and Israel are hated by a vast number of people. Especially their policies (which I am inclined for as much as I would be inclined for a 24h prostate exam without anesthesia).

Also, nice insult to the land of Israel, pretty funny how you insult what you are defending.

I have mixed feelings towards the Israeli country/nation. However I certainly do not applaude the process of how they came to be, or the process of how they keep being.

~Jirisys ()

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Israel created its oasis of a modern Western Democracy out of the hard work and strong wills of its residents.

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There was also terrorism involved, no? So by that standard Palestine is on a great way to creating it's own oasis of a middle eastern success story, they even developed their own rockets!

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

They created there nation despite the racism and bigotry that surrounds them.

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Yes, but they aldo created it with their own racism and bigotry, what gave them the edge were mostly things they imported from outside.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Also Husar Israel is vastly superior to other Middle East nations im not sure how much contention that fac tis under.

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Superior in what way? As Tellos already said, if you take Palestine or Syria as a standard then a lot of countries are huge success stories.
I'd be less afraid to walk in the streets of Dubai than in the streets of Jerusalem, so does that make the UAE an even bigger success story?

We absolutely can compare them as it is the same region. Bit of the point, Israel has top universities, a booming economy and the highest living standard in the region, higher than the filthy rich oil states

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Originally Posted by Fragony

We absolutely can compare them as it is the same region. Bit of the point, Israel has top universities, a booming economy and the highest living standard in the region, higher than the filthy rich oil states

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Yes, but... Why do you care anyways? Want to live in it? Or just smearing your percieved superiority of them over other "lowly, barbarian, muslamic, xenophobic" countries.

You know. People don't hate success itself. Heck, I'm happy they managed to get their humanity back after the holocaust (same can be said about the Armenians, a thing that even Hitler said it's a shame they are never remembered).

People hate injustice. And believe me, I find it similar to gun down soviets on the Berlin Wall, and to gun down muslims in the Gaza Strip.

Also, do you really think having elections every period of time gives power to the people? I pity the fool.

~Jirisys ()

Hate Israel? No, not at all.

I do, however, hate war and social injustice.

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Yes, but... Why do you care anyways? Want to live in it? Or just smearing your percieved superiority of them

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No, but I think it's superiority is the reason it is dispised and that it's flaws are just an excuse, gutmensch isn't interested when Egypt uses gas to clean the tunnels, if Israel would do likewise gutmensch would be hysterically shrieking for sanctions. Gutmensch knows for a fact that all cultures are equal and will claw out your eyes if you have doubts, Israel can't exist in his worldview because he would be wrong

Egypt is (was?) of course a dictatorship, what kind of expectations do you have for a dictatorship? Given that Israel is a democracy, the moral expectations for them are higher, as they obviously should be.

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Originally Posted by Viking

Egypt is (was?) of course a dictatorship, what kind of expectations do you have for a dictatorship? Given that Israel is a democracy, the moral expectations for them are higher, as they obviously should be.

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Just an example because it are Palestinians that are being gassed. Turkey is also a somewhat democracy, but gutmensch is not interested when Turkey decides to kill a kurd or two in Iraq without asking for a UN resolution. See the right has no ideals we need no comfirmation, but idealists do as ideals have to be constantly tested, and sometimes reality is a bit inconvenient. Gutmensch probably knows that no matter how much money is thrown at the Palestinians nothing will ever change, hating Israel for it is Stockholm-syndrome by proxy. At least that's what I think it is, a defence-mechanism of the leftist logic

Turkey is a NATO member, have you forgotten? (left's vs. right's attitudes when it comes to NATO) Turkey's democracy has been a fragile one, for one. Of course, Turkey is also facing armed insurrection; which is not to say that they'll be excused for everything they do, but something that makes the situation harder. I do not know which Kurds you refer to, but I may only assume that they were armed.

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Originally Posted by Viking

Turkey is a NATO member, have you forgotten? (left's vs. right's attitudes when it comes to NATO) Turkey's democracy has been a fragile one, for one. Of course, Turkey is also facing armed insurrection; which is not to say that they'll be excused for everything they do, but something that makes the situation harder. I do not know which Kurds you refer to, but I may only assume that they were armed.

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Matters not, there are no ships with outraged lefties going to Turkey. Only to Israel, which is ironically the most progressive area of the world, even a gay parade

And because they are supposed to be 'progressive', they are kept under extra scrutiny. It is not like that you can trade gay parades for atrocities.

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Originally Posted by Viking

And because they are progressive, they are kept under extra scrutiny. It is not like that you can trade gay parades for atrocities.

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No but atrocities happen everywhere and gays-parades don't, in the non-Israeli parts of the middle-east (which is a lot of middle-east) it would be impossible, hysterical crowds shouting 'allah akhbar' would attack, happens over teddybears no

And most of these states being dictatorships your point is...? Would you like to compare your home country to North Korea whenever it comes under criticism? You will find that atrocities are condemned all over the region, but atrocities is expected from many of them given their nature - they need more than harsh words.

The left doesn't give a crap about kurds? Funny, considering that Norway's Socialist Left Party is pushing for Halabja to be classed as genocide today.


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