Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Released on September 27th, Rise of the samurai marks the third DLC CA have put out for the fantastic Shogun 2, but it's the first mini/extra campaign to be released. Centered 400 years before the Sengoku Jidai featured in the base game, ROTS focuses on the Gempei War, a conflict in which Samurai rose to prominence. As the first mini/extra campaign to be released, this DLC has the potential to be the biggest and best addition overall to the base game. But is it? We strapped a number of moderator's down and fed them intravenously for an entire weekend while they played ROTS to find out!
Note:For the purposes of a timely first impressions and overview, we did not sample Multiplayer. This overview is strictly focused on the singleplayer campaign.
Overview
With a much shorter campaign, Rise of the Samurai runs from 1175 to 1219 (174 turns) on Long victory conditions. With Japan divided into what feels like hundreds of smaller clans, Rise of the Samurai might feel a little daunting to new players, opr that it expects too much too fast. In reality, while Japan is more divided than ever the new mechanics of the campaign will help you unite the land through methods other than a slogging conquest.
New tech trees offer a much more simplier and scaled back approach to both military and civil advances. Due to your much shortened time limit on the campaign, you will want to examine your path carefully, as there may very well not be enough time to research everything you want. You should decide your focuses early..
The now renamed tech trees, Budo and Bunko respectively, replace the old Bushido and Chi arts. You can see here I've already got a number of Budo arts researched from the very start. Each clan starts with a few arts already researched that play to your strength, because of this, your starting clan will likely have a big influence on how you work through the tech tree.
An influence system has completely replaced the religious system. Now, instead of battling for the control of the people's immortal souls, you battle for their hearts and minds. Raising your influence can be done through a variety of ways but all have the ultimate goal of reaching beyond a 50% approval rating in the each province. Once you have risen your influence in a specific province you can send one of your agents (The Junatsushi, recruited from the Market tech buildings) to negotiate with the provincial lords. If he is successful, the province will swear allegience to you and become part of your faction.
Or your agent could be killed. But whats the thrill of reward with the risk? You might be wondering why to even bother with the influence system, afterall, you became Shogun in the main campaign. You've toppled men, great and powerful as well as lowly and commoners, why even bother with all this frilly influence stuff? Well, because the fame meter has made a return in Rise of the Samurai, and its more touchy than ever before. Wiping out clans through force of arms proved to make the fame meter jump in ways it never would have in the base game. Worse still, fame games feel incredibly unpredictable from force of arms tactics. Completely wiping out a minor clan has, in some cases, rewarded the player with a huge amount of fame. Certainly much higher than experienced in the base game.
One of the best ways to ensure a low fame count, however, is to take provinces via the influence system. Causing a province to swear their allegience to you through the slow build of influence will give you, in comparison, very little fame. Alternatively, if that method is too slow, conquering and making your defeated enemies your vassals will also cause fame to rise MUCH more slowly just like the base game. Whatever you choose, be warned that the "realm divide" event is back in Rise of the Samurai, and if you hit it the Emperor (as opposed to the Shogun) will declare you enemy of the state. Sounds scary, but many players have reported that in RotS, Allies are much more willing to maintain their alliances with you even after the divide. So if you hit the end of your fame meter, don't panic, you may not be going it alone!
Units
In RotS a new three tier system has been implemented when it comes to troop levels. In the base game you had Ashigaru and Samurai, peasants and elites basically. In the new campaign there are now three teirs: Levy, Attendants, and Samurai, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
The Levies are your bread and butter, your ashigaru of the Rise of the Samurai campaign and what you'll likely be using 80% of the time. They make great arrow soakers, castle guards, and decent fodder for when you need something to swarm a flank. Their main downside is obvious, they are the bottom tier troop level and are relatively unreliable when faced with superior numbers or superior quality. Use them like you would Ashigaru and don't expect anything more or less and you won't be disappointed!
Serving as your general garrison unit, Levies are recruit-able from every castle in the game from the very start.
Sitting comfortably in the middle of the tier list are the attendants, at first I thought these guys were samurai because they were just so good. In reality they represent the rank and file, the trained soldiers of your armies. Due to their versatility in unit type and unit size (being twice as large as samurai units), Attendants should without a doubt be the workhorse for your army. While the levies are peasants with some training, these guys are your regulars, they are perfect for just about any job you need them to fill. They are perfect for anchoring the center of your line or for charging in against the enemy. Think of them as Ashigaru+, not quite samurai but not quite levies.
Attendants are recruit-able from the very start of the game from at least one castle in your faction of choice.
Armed with bow and sword the elite samurai sit high atop the tier list and make their presence known on the battlefield whenever they happen to show up. Perfect as a hard hitting flanking force, or for the jobs that cannot fail, they are the best of the best when it comes to fighting. They have just one downside, their unit size which is only half as large as their second tier cousins, the attendants. Even so, continued usage demonstrated that even with a low unit count, these guys are murder machines. Put them in the most crucial part of your line where you intend to force a break through and watch them go! They are almost hero level in their reliability, give them support, and watch them tear things up.
Samurai are the only unit tier that are not availible from the start. Depending on your starting clan, you will need to either research the neccessary arts, or build an appropriate castle + tech building to recruit them.
Factions
In Rise of the Samurai there are only six playable factions, but there are dozens and dozens of minor clans that will block your rise to power. Conquering them or getting them to swear allegiance to you is a bit of a daunting task. It might be a bit reassuring then to learn that each selectable clan starts with a "sister" clan, who represents the other part of your family's power. You begin the game allied with your sister clan and on very good terms, but whether or not that will remain the case is entirely up to you and the AI. In the first 30 turns or so, however, that ally is incredibly useful in both boosting your military and trade power, so its always a good idea to keep terms good for as long as you can.
When it comes to faction bonuses, rise of the samurai differs quite a bit in comparison to shogun 2. Here's a side to side comparison of a Rise clan with that of a shogun 2 clan
Shogun 2 has a much broader bonus philosophy, where as clans in the DLC definitely feel much more heavily focused in smaller areas. Here in the example, we see that the Minamoto start with the first Bushi arts already mastered, giving them a clear advantage when it comes to war. Not a bad bonus! In some cases the bonus a clan receives will be that of starting vassal clans, as in the case of Fukuhara Taira. The factions seem to be built toward specific playstyles in the DLC which is really helpful when it comes to finding the faction you want to play as.
How it Plays
Being much shorter and focused on intrigue, diplomatic maneuvering and subtly, Rise of the Samurai's campaign flavor has a bit of a different twist than the original game. There is a huge clash of game design at work within Rise of the Samurai. On one hand, the influence system, the agents, and all of the other structures of the game seem to be built upon the slow and steady approach. It takes time to build agents, to accumulate influence, and to ensure all the pieces are falling into place all at once. Flipping one province to your cause is great, but flipping two right next to one another would be even better! However, take too long and the strict time limit of the campaign suddenly makes its presence known. A new player can easily go from a comfortable position to a desperate bid to complete the game if they turtle too long.
Call me crazy but the map is the feature I loved most about Rise of the Samurai. Something about it just feels much more fluid and free than the base game. It feels like I have way more room to manervuer and use the terrain to my advantage than before. Looking back at the original game, Shogun 2's map looks absolutely cramped in comparison i'm not sure why I never saw it before! This sense of freedom adds quite a lot when it comes to planning your strikes on your enemies. The actual invasion corridors may be the same, but I like the fact that it feels like I can move around a bit more, before the fighting starts.
Building influence is an interesting mechanic and likely tied with the map for the feature i like most about Rise of the Samurai. Usually CA takes the "Total War" aspect of their games to heart, but with the new introduction of influence it feel CA is finally allowing a different path to build your power. It can be quite satisfying to use your agents to build influence in a province, keeping enemies at bay with diplomatic treaties while you steal the loyalty of lesser clans right from under their noses. In the end, you can end up with quite a hefty prize (entire provinces) without a single arrow notched, and to me that is just loads of fun. The AI feels different too, if i had to put a word to it i'd definitely call it much more aggressive than the vanilla AI. Players have been reporting seeing the AI using agents to their absolute fullest and multiple sea-born invasions during the course of a single campaign. It feels very biased against the player, and i've noticed the AI (seemingly) ignoring potential threats at home to instead launch an attack on me abroad. It isn't a psychotic AI who is out to destroy the player from the word go by any means (not from what I saw anyway!), but the old saying "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry" seems to apply.
Above all Rise of the Samurai feels like a balancing act. The shorter campaign means there's a reduced margin for error in absolutely every venture you undertake. The AI is primed and ready to take advantage of just about any weakness the player displays (and at times, feels like it is actively bullying me around). In many ways, Rise of the samurai expects you to know when not to fight perhaps more than it expects you to know when to. Is it worth taking a fame hit now and conquering a troublesome minor quick and easily? Or should you spend 5-15 turns building your influence in their provinces? You'll find yourself wrestling with questions like this often. In Shogun 2, I found I needed to be thinking two or three turns ahead in order to adequately out-play the AI. In Rise of the Samurai, I feel like I have to be planning for twice or sometimes three times that in order to stay one step ahead.
Final Thoughts
Few clans are rated above "easy" or "medium" in Rise of the Samurai, but that feels very relative. As a whole, this DLC screams that it was meant for an advanced player - one who has already claimed the title of Shogun in the Sengoku Jidai and who is looking for a new challenge. The campaign has a lot of really fun, interesting features and adds a lot of excitement to the already fun Shogun 2. What holds it back are a few weird technical glitches and limitations that crop up the deeper into the campaign you get. For example, agent missions seem to be particularly touchy at the moment, and many seem to auto-fail for no reason.
But as for major bugs, I couldn't find any big, glaring game breakers in my time with the game. My main hang up would be the time limit and the clash of gameplay styles. With the heavy emphasis on the slow accumulation of power, i feel the gears shift too quickly toward conquest once you realize time is ticking away. An extended time mod would fit the bill quite nicely and, i feel, really make the DLC shine.
But even with my small hang ups on a few of the aspects of the DLC, i can't deny that I enjoyed my time with it enough to feel justified for the $10 asking price. Rise of the Samurai is a great excuse to get back into playing Shogun 2, and if you liked the original campaign you will in all odds like the new, Gempei War scenario. If you're hungry for more Shogun 2, it's hard to go wrong with this DLC pack.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
That's a very informative and reflective review, Monk, thanks! :bow:
A minor question - you mention there are a lot of minor clans. In AI hands, are the major clans more salient than in the original STW? I was a little disappointed with STW2 that minor clans seemed to rise to the same or greater prominence as the major ones. I suppose it added unpredictablity and replayability, but I think it detracted a bit from the personality of your rival.
Also, how is the naval side? I gather there are still trade nodes: does the AI fight for them? What are the highest tech ships? I guess ironclads, I mean canon bunes, are out - which may help balance.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
In the games I've played, the 5 other major clans (obviously excluding the one you play) were always in a really good position. I think this has more to do with the fact that you start out allied and not alone, already have established bonuses unique to your clan, as well as a head start on trade. The problem is that, out of the 6 clans, none of them start on Kyushu, or even relatively close to it. For balancing, this is pretty good - every major clan has to fight for those trade spots instead of one clan almost having exclusive access to it... unless you're quick. On the other hand, it gives those minor clans a lot of legroom to work their magic. If they're aggressive, one minor clan can become big enough to rival the major clans. It's also funny to note that there are several major clans from the previous game present in this one. It makes sense, but it's still fairly amusing to see... especially the Ashikaga.
For your second question, yes, there are trade nodes. They are different resources, but in the same spots. High tech ships are "Samurai" class, so basically a mirror of the infantry; levy class ships, attendant class, and samurai class. There are 3 types of ships of each class, and they are common throughout the ranks, and then there are other specialty ships. I haven't seen much fighting for the trade nodes personally. There's not a lot of action for the major clans in those areas, so you'll rarely get the chance to see those switch hands unless you are specifically at war with a clan that goes there.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Great stuff, Monk :2thumbsup:
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Great review. I wasnt planning to buy this but i think you might have convinced me to change my mind, specifically the stuff about influence, which i wasnt aware of.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Madae has said most of what there is to say about RotS' naval aspects. There aren't many ship types (light, medium, and heavy classes, crewed by attendants or samurai) and the rest behaves in the same way as the original campaign.
Now that the AI is functioning correctly in my RotS game, I'd say it's slightly more aggressive at sea. I'm having real problems with the navy-focused Taira clan hunting down my ships; I can't sneak anything past them and can't muster sufficient force to counter their superior ships. Compared to the original campaign's AI RotS is a little more keen on blockading ports and pirating trade lanes, and seems to do naval invasions a little more frequently. The AI has not gone after my two trade nodes yet, although I have seen the original campaign's AI do so on numerous occasions. I'm profoundly grateful for this as loss of those nodes would probably be the final straw for my beleaguered, poverty-stricken Kamakura Minamoto!
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Is the naval battle A.I. better than it was in the original campaign? I haven't played any naval battles in hard yet, but in normal the A.I. didn't pose much of a threat.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Only incidentally. I.e. Naval battles resume themselves now almost exclusively to archery duels, which incur very high losses on both sides very quickly. What the AI grasps very competently is focus fire, so if its ships reach you simultaneously (which happens only half the time) it will focus fire your ships into Shattered status one by one very fast. The way to counter it is, of course, to focus fire it competently in return. A Large ship capable of Rally in every fleet (which you'll want to form out of Medium ships) also helps a bit.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Thanks for the answer. That's rather different from what the Encyclopaedia claims about Japanese naval battles of the period, but if this tactic is more effective in-game I am not bothered about it. The problem with the naval A.I. isn't so much its tactics as its inability to get its ships lined-up properly.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Read your review after I purchased my the DLC package, definitely pleased with my purchase. :bow:
Thank you Monk.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ludens
Thanks for the answer. That's rather different from what the Encyclopaedia claims about Japanese naval battles of the period, but if this tactic is more effective in-game I am not bothered about it. The problem with the naval A.I. isn't so much its tactics as its inability to get its ships lined-up properly.
Agreed. Too many battles end up in a 'bumper car' scenario because there's seemingly very little group logic in play. If you're at the edge of the map, it's particularity frustrating as ships will get caught between themselves as well as the border. You too often end up with an unworkable mess. This needs work. ETW and NTW naval encounters were fun because (for a while) the AI would attempt to maintain some sort of formation. I've taken to playing with the smallest fleet size via the options menu to try to mitigate the problem. It works somewhat, but you have to live with smaller trade revenue as a consequence (i.e only 6 ships per node)
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Quote:
I've taken to playing with the smallest fleet size via the options menu to try to mitigate the problem. It works somewhat, but you have to live with smaller trade revenue as a consequence (i.e only 6 ships per node)
As I explained in another thread, even after enabling the smallest fleet size (6 ships per fleet) you are still able to create 10 ship fleets. What you cannot do is move the last remaining ship of a fleet into a 6 ship fleet; what you can do is merge a 6 ship fleet with, say, a 5 ship fleet and when the interchange panel appears, select 4 of the 5 ships and transfer them into the stack of 6. Voila, 10 ship trade fleets.
Of course, you really ought not create 10 warship fleets as well unless you wish to downright cheat. Yet if your intention is simply to avoid the maneuver issues the naval side of this game is plagued with, while still making full use of Foreign Trading Posts, then this trick will solve the problem for you.
However, my personal recommendation is to always use the smallest fleet size for both warships and trade ships, because the amount of koku obtained through the use of FTPs is obscene even at the lowest level and creates a huge imbalance in favour of the player already.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nowake
As I explained in another thread, even after enabling the smallest fleet size (6 ships per fleet) you are still able to create 10 ship fleets. What you cannot do is move the last remaining ship of a fleet into a 6 ship fleet; what you can do is merge a 6 ship fleet with, say, a 5 ship fleet and when the interchange panel appears, select 4 of the 5 ships and transfer them into the stack of 6. Voila, 10 ship trade fleets.
Of course, you really ought not create 10 warship fleets as well unless you wish to downright cheat. Yet if your intention is simply to avoid the maneuver issues the naval side of this game is plagued with, while still making full use of Foreign Trading Posts, then this trick will solve the problem for you.
However, my personal recommendation is to always use the smallest fleet size for both warships and trade ships, because the amount of koku obtained through the use of FTPs is obscene even at the lowest level and creates a huge imbalance in favour of the player already.
Hmm... I hadn't considered that loophole. Thanks for pointing it out. Does this happen when the AI merges fleets? I hadn't noticed any larger fleets sailing around, but I may have simply missed it.
Agreed on trade nodes being too easy to exploit (unless playing modded or with house rules). I tend to group ships by utility (heavy, light, trade) so that even with relatively many ships in an encounter, they at least enter from different map points. That usually makes the tactical situation more interesting as well and leads to a drawn out engagement with less clumping.
Don't really have a feel yet in RotS regarding the relative contribution to revenue from the nodes, due to player starting positions and my lack of time with it thus far. The better commodities seem to trade at similar prices to those in the Sengoku campaign.
Back on topic, the review is a good one and touches on most of RotS' finer, positive gameplay elements: an interesting redux of the agent system; the new family relationships between clans which create parallel opportunities for both cooperation and exploitation; the campaign AI's greater tendency to act in self interest when it smells blood, etc. I might add to that list, the nicely balanced splits in some of the building chains make for some good strategic dilemmas. In particular, growth vs static wealth in the market chain makes you consider your long term strategy quite early. To maximize growth on a large scale, you really need to go for the Chi art quickly, as that's where Grain Warehouses and their +30 growth are available (combine with full infrastructure in multiple port regions and perhaps ranked 'yoshi). Chi is necessary for other top tier structures as well, but with the game's early end date you can't afford too much diversion from that path if you're to take advantage of the base wealth accumulation. I'm still not certain it's even worth it under ideal conditions, but it is an interesting calculation to weigh, nonetheless.
As for the drawbacks, I haven't noticed the agent success rate going wonky at any point yet. I see this is mentioned as a late campaign issue. Keeping an eye out :inquisitive: As for extending the end date that's easily solved, as the review implies. Although, I think the game might lose some tension if it became too much of a sandbox. Having more diplomatic tools or leverage available after everyone goes bonkers might be a better fix. I'd like to see the marriage and hostage options taken further, in that regard.
My biggest complaint thus far is with the defensive siege AI for smaller settlements. The AI opponent in no way recognizes that it can man walls and doesn't set up to take advantage of protected positions for archers. It can man castle walls; why not these? Even if it was an initial deployment that it later abandoned, the whole affair of assaulting these new, smaller installations would feel more correct and fun. It certainly does from the defending perspective (especially when out-manned). I'd really love to see that developed more in a future patch as it isn't yet an accessible modding problem.
Overall, great review for a great new addition to the series :bow:
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CraigTW
Nice review :)
:bow: Thank you Craig.
I am glad people found this so helpful in their efforts to decide if ROTS was for them. I'm also happy it sparked some great discussion about the finer points of the DLC.
Good hunting, everyone. And watch out for those pesky Minamoto
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
The Kiso Minamoto have a really advantageous starting position. South Shinano is sheltered by mountains from the south and east, the only problem comes from the West where an expanding Taira could pose early problems. Easy to turtle and easily defensible but economically it isn't that good.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
Since I'm just getting around to playing ROTS, running through my 1st campaign, which I have every confidence I'm going to lose on time. Which is actually the topic I'd like to ask others about. Is it just me, or did CA make this game focused on influence, which takes more time than just good ole plain war mongering, and then give you LESS time to accomplish your victory conditions? This strikes me as completely backwards. If they wanted this to be a more subtle game of influence and alliances, why on earth did they give me less time and not more time to do in?
In order to meet the victory conditions, I'm pretty sure as I run through a few more campaigns I'm going to discover the only way to accomplish this is going to be through resorting to force to make the deadline, and as a result I will of course tip the more sensitive fame meter against me, which will then only force me to get even more brute force to deal with it.
I'm sorry, but this just feels like a fundamentally conflicted game, one that sets itself at odds with its own purpose.
I don't get it. And I don't think CA did either.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
frog and I had a short exchange on the dynamics of RotS a while back, touching more than tangentially on the issue you raise.
You can read it here.
I am pretty sure you will find there a few pertinent ways to deal with influence, even relevant screenshots.
One can also trivialise it through rebellions as I describe in the thread. You have bags of time.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
If you prefer to take things slowly, there's a simple mod which changes the campaign end date and nothing else. After winning some games with the default turn limit I now use that mod so that I can relax a bit. With the original limit I tend to finish with a mere 3-4 years remaining on the clock, and have to go on a bit of a sprint in the closing years in order to snag the required number of provinces.
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
thx for the link to the other thread nowake
and i'll keep that mod in mind frog, i'll admit to being a bit mod adverse, so i'll no doubt muddle through the campaign repeatedly unmodded till i beat it
is it just me, or is almost no one playing ROTS? or is this some kind of fight club thing i missed the memo on and we're not supposed to talk about it
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
I've recently started a Kamakura Minamoto campaign and I've extended my empire both westwards (Kyoto region) and eastwards (Fujiwara lands) due to my alliance with the Nitta, Daisuke and Ashikaga clans. Surprisingly, they stayed with me even after Realm Divide, remaining pretty strong at +100 over relations. I've spammed my two main armies with upgraded foot samurai and they are terrifyingly effective in combat.
I'm facing a problem though, I'm not sure on the proper way to engage the Taira, who have employed a full stack of bow warrior monks in their army. Are foot samurai superior to bow warrior monks (some stats suggests this) or will they get cut down due to their lower accuracy?
Re: Rise of the Samurai: .Org Review
First of all, welcome to the .Org! It's good to have you Jaabberwocky!
Oh, and a RotS player - you are an endangered species already!
Now, onto your conundrum: if you are facing an actual full stack of bow warrior monks, I would first write it's a crime not to recruit a few scores of riders.
In a show-down between foot samurai and bow warrior monks however, even if their archery skill would be somewhat superior, you want to go for close-combat from the get-go. Samurai may or may not be marginally better shots than bow warrior monks, yet they are devastatingly better with a katana.
