What to take south?

I'm currently playing a russia, expert, high, domination game. After wiping out the horde I'm unsure of what to take into the middle east. I'm thinking that armored spearmen, with no armor upgrades, are going to form the main line of my armies but what to use for flankers? Russia has a really limited infantry selection. No swords, no axes. Am I going to be stuck with Step heavies and Bowyars as my flanking melee troops or is there something I'm overlooking? I sure wish Vikings were available to me in high, they'd fit the bill perfectly.

I've got a Novgorod Early campaign going, so I'm curious about this myself. Assuming I survive the Horde (about 20 years away in my campaign), I will need to turn my eyes that way. Unlike you, I will have the luxury of Vikings, but this is my first go with the Nov/Russian army list. Assuming you have the basic Russian territory, you should have access to:

Infantry(armour val):

Armoured Spearmen(3)
Slav Warriors(1)
Woodsmen(2)
Feudal Foot Knights(3)
Urban Militia(1)
Militia Sergeants(3)

Missiles(armour val):

Slav Javelins(1)
Archers(1)
Crossbows/Arbelesters(3)
Handgunners(4)

Cavalry(armour val):

Boyars(5)
Horse Archers(2)
Mounted XBow(3)
Steppe Heavies(5)
Druzhina(3)
Lithuanian Cav(4)
Steppe Cav(3)

Region Specials(armour val), get these if you can:

Swiss Halbies(2)
Highlanders(1)
Genoese Sailors(1)

I can't remember, does the desert fatigue effect kick in at armour levels 2/3 (infantry/cav), or 3/4? For infantry flankers, I'd take Woodsmen (trained in Lithuania with as many religious buildings you can get for morale). Otherwise, the infantry choices look pretty poor. Steppe Cavalry(6) and Druhzinas(4) have better charge numbers than Steppe Heavies(2), and with lower armour they should last longer in the heat.

Definitely inferior to my usual Catholic desert force - Mounted Sergeant/Gallowglass/Highlander/Archer/Feudal Sergeant mix. :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by RRMike

I'm currently playing a russia, expert, high, domination game. After wiping out the horde I'm unsure of what to take into the middle east. I'm thinking that armored spearmen, with no armor upgrades, are going to form the main line of my armies but what to use for flankers? Russia has a really limited infantry selection. No swords, no axes. Am I going to be stuck with Step heavies and Bowyars as my flanking melee troops or is there something I'm overlooking? I sure wish Vikings were available to me in high, they'd fit the bill perfectly.

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Use mercenaries. And druzhina cavalry is supposed to get dismounted not just in sieges but in field battles as well, so you will have fuedal (or chivalric - I'm not sure) men-at-arms.
As for decision what to take to the desert you should think not only of the troops you will use, but of the troops you will face there. In my opinion missile cavalry is essential here (preferably with good stats - Boyars are just fine) as your adversaries will use pretty much of it plus foot archers.
If I were you for defensive battles I would build a shieldwall with rus spearmen, deploy a couple of archer (both foot and horse) units at the back of it with a couple of arbalesters in front - if they are available. After the initial impact use your heavier cavs for a hit-in-the-back manouver. For offensive - think horse archers. Draw the enemy in chase after them and devour the units one by one.
Well, I'm such a good tactitian when it comes to giving advice, but when on the battlefield ... (a heavy and wistful sigh).

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Originally Posted by drone

I can't remember, does the desert fatigue effect kick in at armour levels 2/3 (infantry/cav), or 3/4?

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Hi

Section 3.3 of Frogbeastegg's guide - Desert
"This one deserves a special mention because it provides a bonus to camels and tires any unit with more than 5 armour out much quicker than usual. Camels are deadly in the desert, especially to horses. They receive a penalty if you take then to a lush province though."

V

Druhzinas dismount (for any battle) to Feudal Foot Knights, the best swordsmen available to the Nov/Russians. I recruit them strictly for this feature. 325 florins for a 60-man Elite sword unit. :2thumbsup: They are the hidden gem of the roster by far.

Armour level 5 seems too high to me for some reason. There is a threshold where the unit will not recover from fatigue in the desert, I always thought it was 3 for infantry and 4 for cav. :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by drone

Armour level 5 seems too high to me for some reason. There is a threshold where the unit will not recover from fatigue in the desert, I always thought it was 3 for infantry and 4 for cav. :inquisitive:

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I agree 5 seems too high. So a bit more looking. This is in the Medieval:TotalWar Numerology thread over at the official site:

"Arodi (06/28/05 16:56:20) [Armour in the desert, tiring and recovery]

I found my earlier list of armour ratings to be incorrect, after long testing. I've observed the following findings concerning armour ratings in the desert:

Cav with an armour rating of 5 and 6 tire considerably faster than 3 and 4. When marching across the desert at normal speed, cav can keep marching across the desert without reaching full exhaustion at 3. 4 And up will ultimately exhaust themselves entirely, just by marching. These values all seem disrespective of shield bonus and whether they are fast or not. Therefore it can be concluded that cav with an armour rating of maximum 3 will perform best in the desert. Anything higher than that will completely tire out, with conditions being worst starting at armour 5 while 4 remains *reasonable*.

Also infantry behave equally, regardless of shields and speed. However, infantry will exhaust itself sooner, with armour ratings starting with 3 and above, exhausting themselves entirely when just marching across the desert at normal speed. Armour levels of 2 and below will not reach full exhaustion regardless of the distance they march. At 2 armour they will recover to 2 energy, while at 3 armour they will recover to 1 energy. Armour 4 and up will not recover at all. Therefore it can be concluded that infantry with a maximum armour 2 will perform best, with 3 remaining reasonable and 4 and up suffering the worst conditions.

You'll find that these findings correspond nicely with default armour ratings for standard muslim units."

I must admit, I thought up to 4 armour could 'handle' desert conditions. Arodi, however, makes Slav warriors sound worth recruiting. Hundred man units entering the field late in a long attritional battle. They could rule!

Regards
V

That makes sense. Horses are basically +1 to armour so what applies to infantry at X applies to cavalry at X + 1. So if you want any fatigue recovery, keep infantry/cav below 4/5 armour, best performance below 3/4.

I think Gilrandir has the basic strategy: horse archers, horse archers, horse archers. Run the enemy around, tire them out, and draw them forward. Armoured spears will get tired moving around too much. Steppe Cav for quick strikes and getting behind enemy lines, Woodsmen for devastating flank attacks. Maybe some Slav Warriors thrown in for good measure. I'd recommend morale upgrades for all your infantry, they will not be your best troops and fatigue kills morale.

Crossbows/Arbalesters are borderline. They have great punch, but they are going to get fatigued very quickly (and they are already slow-firing as is), and you won't be running into many heavily armoured units in the desert. Maybe a unit to deal with the Ghulam Bodyguards of the opposing general, but that's it.

Rus spearman aren't available, that's why I mentioned armored spears. I detest all mounted missile troops as less than worthless with few exceptions. I do take enemy units into account but don't feel the need to match them with like units. Spears and foot missiles make short work of mounted missiles.

It's gonna be armored spears, druzhina, which dismount to feudal foot knights, and lots of archers with arbs sprinkled in. Maybe a few steppe cav for chasing routers.

Is there any way to dismount reinforcement units? In big battles I might have 10 druzhina and don't want all 10 of my swords with the first wave.

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Originally Posted by RRMike

Rus spearman aren't available, that's why I mentioned armored spears. I detest all mounted missile troops as less than worthless with few exceptions. I do take enemy units into account but don't feel the need to match them with like units. Spears and foot missiles make short work of mounted missiles.

It's gonna be armored spears, druzhina, which dismount to feudal foot knights, and lots of archers with arbs sprinkled in. Maybe a few steppe cav for chasing routers.

Is there any way to dismount reinforcement units? In big battles I might have 10 druzhina and don't want all 10 of my swords with the first wave.

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How large armies are you facing? You can use heavier troops if you only face 1 wave, since the fatigue won't be that devastating yet.

Arbs only work for the first few waves. After they hit exhausted, they don't properly recover and loses something like 80% of the firepower. So it depends on tactics to use them or not and they might be needed to be withdrawn.

Mounted missiles work fine as harassers, which work better in the desert. Simply avoid or charge down the enemy ranged.

Steppe cav is excellent in there.

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Originally Posted by RRMike

I detest all mounted missile troops as less than worthless with few exceptions. I do take enemy units into account but don't feel the need to match them with like units. Spears and foot missiles make short work of mounted missiles.

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I don't know how you can do without missile cavalry on the offensive. They are quite useful on the defensive as additional archer units which can serve as very fast chasers. But when you attack you can't drag all your army across the map to reach the enemy waiting for you somewhere on the edge of it without getting your troops fatigued no matter how lightly armored they are. So I usually deploy the bulk of my army on some hillock half way to the enemy's position and move forward my horse archer friends to afflict the bastards.
A word in defense of arbalesters. I somehow discovered that they are very effective not only against armored targets, but any targets, in fact. If you are defending and are deployed on a hill (which are numerous in arid terrain provinces) the arbalesters' range of fire is astounding. They start to mow through the attacking enemy like scythe long time before he reaches your positions, so when he does, it is with a much depleted army that he can attack you. Their second advantage is that their slow shooting style lets their ammo last long after your regular archers have empty quivers. So a couple of arbalester units is a must for my defending armies. I remember routing the enemy exclusively by "outstanding perimeter shooting", to use basketball terminology. It is a pity that Turks don't have them.

I just stroll on over there and kill them. I don't know exactly how to describe how I go about attacking, as each battle is different and how I go about it isn't always even similar but I just cruise my guys over to their guys and then decide what the best way is to kill them all and then proceed to do it. My experience with mounted missile troops is that they take up one of my 16 available unit spots and don't manage to kill too many guys before they are dead and I'd rather use that spot for a unit that will kill far more bad guys. Maybe it's the way I manage my generals and the fact that I often have a valor advantage that makes up for the fatigue? I don't really know.

I do really groom my generals. I pay close attention to V&V's and assigning titles and winning battles only with generals that I want to build up. I don't let my generals lose battles. If I know I can't win I will get my general out of harm's way so as not to have him suffer a defeat, and use one of my 2nd string generals. The guys you use for expeditionary stuff like taking Ireland. I never isolate one of my good generals and leave them stranded with the possibility of being cut of by blockade and unable to retreat or be reinforced. I use all my 2 and 3 star guys for that kind of junk and if I lose them I lose them. If they have good success and make it to 4* status then they get to join the "front line general" club if they don't have any bad vices. No use letting an inbred general get a bunch of victories and end up just losing those stars anyway....

Sorry I got off on a bit of a rant there. I've been up all night and need to go to sleep.

I guess our likes and dislikes as for certain units determine the tactics we use. You seem to do perfectly well without horse archers which you detest (I can share you bigotry only to the part of mounted missile units known as mounted crossbowmen). I have similar feelings to javelin units. You have to approach the enemy too close to get them down to work and then the enemy attacks and they withdraw and never start the thing I pay them for. Otherwise you should pin the target unit with some of your units to keep it put. In this case some of your soldiers will be caught in friendly fire. In this case you are to use a junk unit, but what is the use of keeping a junk unit in you army capable of only holding the enemy for a short space as then it will surely rout (being a junk unit). So all these ruminations made me avoid javs in my armies. Probably someone may boast of a special knack of using them, but here we go again of personal likes and dislikes.

Yup. Different strokes for different folks. One of the few mounted missile units that I do like is x-bows. The AP, in early, is rare and I like to take a couple units along to do nothing but shoot at the enemy general until he dies or the battle is won and then they begin router cleanup. In a pinch they can charge into the back of some enemy units if things aren't going to plan since they generally spend most of their time behind the enemy line shooting at the AI general.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

A word in defense of arbalesters. I somehow discovered that they are very effective not only against armored targets, but any targets, in fact. If you are defending and are deployed on a hill (which are numerous in arid terrain provinces) the arbalesters' range of fire is astounding. They start to mow through the attacking enemy like scythe long time before he reaches your positions, so when he does, it is with a much depleted army that he can attack you. Their second advantage is that their slow shooting style lets their ammo last long after your regular archers have empty quivers. So a couple of arbalester units is a must for my defending armies. I remember routing the enemy exclusively by "outstanding perimeter shooting", to use basketball terminology. It is a pity that Turks don't have them.

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Arbs are great, don't get me wrong. They have the best range, best accuracy, and best chance to wound than any other missile unit, plus they do multiple hit points of damage that allows them to kill off those pesky uber-generals quickly. It's just that in the desert, they are going to get tired quite quickly, and that effectiveness will not last long in the battle, which negates their ammo longevity advantage.

I'm not much a fan of mounted missiles either, but you need to adapt to the situation and roster as necessary. I've been using a lot of horse archers in my Novgorod campaign, mainly because I have no choice. The mobility is nice, you don't need to worry about them getting rushed like infantry archers, and you can move them around during battle to get better firing angles. Just don't get into a duel with an infantry archer unit, keep them moving away after a few shots to force the archers to chase. And they can chase routing units well, so you get extra functionality with one unit. I'll never get so I love them, even though in the hands of a pro the HA army rules all.