Recommendations for Seleucid Army compositions.

Hello everyone,
As I have said before one of these days I will finish an EB campaign (to be honest my current Carthaginian game could be finished without much difficulty but I have got a bit bored managing my Spanish mines and commanding my allied Italians) and I think my current Seleucid campaign could be it.

My strategic situation is as follows: Southern Anatolia is secured, once my army is replenished I intend to capture Galatia and turn Pontos into a protectorate, Rhodes is shortly to be invaded and should not pose a problem whilst Cyprus fell recently. My southern and eastern theatres are the concern, in the Levant I am in the process of pushing the Ptolemoi out of Judea and subsequently move into the Nile. In the east I pulled out of my Satrapies to create a buffer zone between myself and the Pahlava which up until now has kept them busy, however this season they closed the gap and Media and Persia are now threatened.

Against the Ptolemoi I am using an army composed of one FM, three prodromoi, four thureophoroi, two pezhetaroi and the remainder or my force is made up of klerouchoi phalangites. I have had no problems with this army in set battles but major problems in sieges where my phalanxes tend to fair poorly in narrow streets and I don't want to ask too much of my thureopheroi. As Egypt has several large, well defended cities I was wondering if anyone could recommend any particular assault troops that the Seleucids have access to? The last thing I want are heavy casualties in the Ptolemaic homeland.

Against the Pahlava I want to field a new army, rather than the motony of phalanx based armies I want to try and use as many Iranian troops as possible. Can anyone recommend a good (arrow resistant) composition that would be fun to use? I already want to use Babylonians in place of my thuropheroi.

Thank you in advance!

The best Seleucid assault units are all elites unfortunately. Peltastai Makedonikai and Hypaspistai, TAB's if you've gotten the reform. Other than that, Thorakitai will have to do with the provinces you currently control. The weakness of the AS is in mobile hard hitting units, no Iberian Assault Infantry or Samnites for them. Once you control Galatia however, you can get both Tindanotae and more importantly the Kuarthoroi which both make for good assault troops. In a pinch, use Thureophoroi backed up by some form of ap light infantry, such as Anatolian Hillmen or Cappadocian Hillmen in the west. Both of these will do a decent job. However, for your current situation, use Thorakitai and hope that the Ptollies don't have armies of Galatikoi Klerouchoi sitting in their towns. That was the case in my game and I took huge losses with every street/wall battle. (Hint: remember to sap)

As far as the eastern theater, other than Thereophoroi and Thorakitai, not many non-phalangite units east of Babylon that are arrow proof. Use lonchophoroi as your cavalry as the shield helps against arrows. What I recommend is just using lots of easily replaceable locals, a core of Babylonians and phalangites, and tons of your own archers and slingers. Its a battle of attrition, but at least with Media and Persia as your borders you should have some decent recruitment options.

I second that, hire/train more naked dudes from Galatia and ship them everywhere you need dirty job of taking enemy walls

When the Ptollies have elite troops on their walls, I'd use lot's of axemen they work great on walls as long as you shield them with Phalangitai or at least Thureophori. Add some Thorakitai and for the staying power tho. Galatian swordsmen do wonders aswell tho more appropriate for light troops.

against the Parni, hmmm Lonchophoroi are my best guess aswell. Add some Raiders(you know HA with shield) and you may win one or another Archery duel. Next to Archers slingers and a few heavy spearmen(Babylonians etc) I personally like to field light-medium spearmen to catch some cav on occasion, Caucasians are best(because very hardy and cheap) imho but Parthian spearmen are not toooo bad aswell, tho awfully overpriced, offcource you can also just swarm them with panda inf. They will die a lot but, hey they are local levy. Later in the campaign you can also get some Dahae or Arachosian Skirms who work well against Catas(work well considering they cost much less ;) )

Personally I use a few Klerouchoi Phalangitai as the core of all my armies as soon as I can, whether operating in the East or the West. I tend to use a defensive / offensive strategy as the phalangites are so good in defence and pretty poor on the attack. By that I mean that I try and get the AI to attack me, besieging his cities and waiting for the relief force to attack or just trailing my coat in his zone of control. I very rarely assault a city but usually continue the siege until the inevitable end. Those inside get weaker every turn and either a relief force will turn up or the besieged will sally and in either case I am fighting on the tactical defensive where phalangites are at their best. Try it - patience is a great virtue! With other factions this might be a bit boring, tying up your main armies in sieges lasting months and years, but the Arche Seleukeia is never boring, there is always lots going on elsewhere in the kingdom so boredom is the least of your problems!
I am finding that I am, however, reducing the number of phalangite units in an army, perhaps to only 3 or 4. They remain vital and are the core around which your other forces can manouevre but they are inflexible and they are not good as reserves, taking too long to move and take up formation. Flank protection from Thureophoroi or Thorakitai is essential although I frequently use some locally recruited alternative, Jewish Spearmen or Karian Warband perhaps. I use similar troops as reserves (you gotta have reserves!) although troops with an armour piercing (AP) capability are good for this too, ie. Anatolian Hillmen, Cappadaccian Hillmen, Eastern Axemen or Hyrkanian Hillmen perhaps.
I use slingers, Hellenic or Eastern, as they are cheap, available early, get better quickly and are AP. I like archers too, Persian Heavy or Cretan. Both types of missile troops are essential in the East in large numbers (very large numbers!) but the only way to really counter Horse Archers is to have your own. Parthian Horse Archers are good but Dahae Riders are better. .
Lastly you need good cavalry to be the hammer to your phalangite anvil. I like Lonchophoroi Hippeis in the West and Median Medium Cavalry or better still Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry in the East. Perhaps only 2 or 3 of these are needed though.
I have house rules that severely limit my use of elite or "Royal" troops so unless my king of Kings is present my armies are as above.

I really like phalangitai, immovable wall of spears they are. But in my AS campaign I'm planing an army reform, remaking my army into somewhat standard formations of Thureoporoi, Thorakitai and Peltastai, with medium cavalry as support (something vaguely similar to Legion system). That way I get much more mobility and tactical freedom. Phalangitai are really only good when acting as a wall holding enemy army, while Thureoporoi and Thorakitai have much needed flexibility and don't depend on strong cavalry arm as phalangitai.

I still want to keep some phalanx based armies though.

Another advantage of T&T's are that they are recruitable in much larger area.

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Originally Posted by Stark

Phalangitai are really only good when acting as a wall holding enemy army, while Thureoporoi and Thorakitai have much needed flexibility and don't depend on strong cavalry arm as phalangitai.

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Quite so. Would be interesting to see which is better for the Seleucids, traditional Macedonian phalanx with lots of heavy cavalry, or flexible articulated heavy infantry and only a little heavy cavalry.

But I resist this change myself since such a change away from heavy cavalry is basically an admission that the Roman military system is better than the Seleucid system. In terms of sheer national pride, this is a bad choice for the Seleucids. They would do it if they had to, not because they wanted to.

Well, if Romans themself abandoned their focus on heavy infantry, my Seleucids can experiment a bit :nice:

That's the beauty of Arche Seleukiea, they have a really diverse roster so can completely change your fighting style when your current one starts to bore you.

East Of Babylon:

2-4 Hetaroi (General included)

6- Panda Phalanx

4- Persian Archer/Archer Spearmen/Mardian Archer/Heavy Persian archer/whatever

2- Slinger

Babylonian Shipri Tukul- As many as you can

West of Babylon

6 Panda Phalanx

4 Shipri Tukul

4 Galatian Kuarothoroi

2 Heavy Archers (Syrians/Persians/Cretans whatver)

As many cavalry as you can get your hands on

Pretty simple

Parthian Spearmen are rather cheap and comparably resistant to arrows (from the front). They make good garrison troops.

The basic Iranian combination, which is really cost-efficient, would be Parthian Spearmen, Eastern Axemen, and Persian Archers (or Archer-Spearmen if you want to use them more aggressively).
Other than that, Shipri Tukul and Thorakitai are a great asset against heavy cavalry.

Personally, I would try to use several different ethnically more or less homogenous armies at once. The Seleukids are probably the best faction to pull this off due to their extremely varied recruitment options. You can field a Makedonian army alongside a Persian, Saka, "Roman-style", Galatian, Mesopotamian and Indian army each.

Eastern Axemen is a big no no, they will get shot.

Not if you use them correctly.

Doesn't look like I will have time to put together a good assault force for invading Egypt, papa needs cash quick. Will just have to rely on ky theuropheroi. Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

Related?: what type of government do you need in Galatia to train Naked Fanatics? I am weary of destroying the type 2 without being certain.

I think type 3

That's true. You need a regional mic level 4 which means at least type 3 is necessary.