Talking Strategy

So I finally installed S:TW on my Win 7 and it works!! I was so excited I played the whole campaign in one day. I had almost gotten rid of all the other clans and only had the green one left. (sorry I don't know know their names yet) When I was about to take them on...My daimyo died!!! I was playing in easy ofcourse so now I want to play for reals but have being thinking on what strategy to use. I was playing as the blue clan on my last campaign and would use worked but i dont know if it would work now. I would get a big army and then attack the closest clan until I destroyed it. But I'm not sure If that will work this time. BTW I did save the game before my Daimyo died so I was wondering if I can keep playing or if he will die when I click the next season button.

When your daimyo dies without an heir, the game is over. This is why you need to safeguard your heirs. In STW heirs don't get special units they are born and just come of age at fixed dates and take over the next unit in the training queue - this could be a unit of Heavy Cavalry or a unit of Yari Ashigaru...

For this reason you need to keep an eye on the heir parchment to keep track of your heirs, their ages and when they will come of age. When that occurs you need to clear your training queues and just train one unit of the desired type in the province where you want the heir to appear. In terms of which units are best for heirs, that's a matter of quite some debate. Personally I favour cavalry units for this as they have that vital mobility to get out of harm's way quickly. The worst choices for heirs in my opinion are No Dachi (kill fast esp when attacking the flanks/rear, but also die fast) and any Ashigaru (not samurai, thus morale problems). Warrior Monks are also a bad choice in my opinion, due to their "front line" nature, though some may disagree. Najinta or Yari Samurai are acceptable if nothing better is available. It's also a good idea to stack heirs in separate provinces as the last thing you want is a defeat (or even a victory) where two or more of your heirs die.

The thing is that you dont get one very often and I only got two during the whole game. I think that I might have accidentally killed them withouth knowing. I'll be wiser the next time. But what do you think is the best way to go about attacking other clans?? I really didn't keep an army inside of my territories but keep a huge one on what would be the "frontier" of my dominion. Is that good?? BTW is there a way to boost the production of heirs??

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But what do you think is the best way to go about attacking other clans??

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That all depends on four things:

1. Which clan you are playing as...

2. Your style of play...

3. The difficulty level you are playing at...

4. Which time period you start in...

Clan selection has a major impact on strategy. Shimazu is safely tucked away at the southern end of Japan and so you will not have to fight a multi-front campaign. The other end of the spectrum is Oda or Takeda. Both have clans on on all sides and so you will likely have to fight on multiple fronts. Imagawa and Takeda both have campaigns that have a split empire, so there's difficulty in uniting your lands. Starting clan also affects your income, and hence your ability to wage war. Some clans, like the Hojo or Uesugi have starting provinces (or quick access to) that have rich farmland.

Your playstyle affects your strategy. Are you a cavalry enthusiast? Do you prefer walls of spears or hordes of archers? Or do you prefer a blend of all of them? Are you adept at using teppo, and will you convert to Christianity to get them before anyone else? Do you prefer blitz tactics, or turtling?

The difficulty level affects your game, as well. At the higher settings, losing a battle(s) can put a quick end to your campaign, while at the easier settings, the game is more forgiving.

Starting date affects strategy due to slightly differing starting positions, whether you have a long time to build up fighting rebels before taking on another clan, and the level of infrastructure already in place. The 1530 campaigns start with little infrastructure and large spaces between clans, allowing you time to develop. The 1580 campaigns start with extensive infrastructure already in place for most clans, and close borders. You will be facing advanced units and large armies very quickly.

There is a lot of information in the STW guides, and I would suggest a browsing of other players AAR's (After Action Reports) for many of the campaign's. Hope some of this helps........

The last campaign I played was on easy and I played as the Uesugi. It was preatty easy to go attacking one clan at a time but I found it annoying that I had to build castles and all that stuff for each territory I conquer. What is the advantages of Christianity?? Is it worth it? I really like a combination of cavalry and archers. BTW how do I build a trading post??

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Originally Posted by critviz

The last campaign I played was on easy and I played as the Uesugi. It was preatty easy to go attacking one clan at a time

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The Uesugi on the easy difficulty is quite arguably the easiest campaign you can play in STW. The Uesugi on the whole are an easy clan.

If you're playing the Warlord/Gold/Mongol Invasion Edition, make sure you install v1.02 patch and move to at least the hard difficulty and once you're comfortable with that move on to expert - or try the old unit stats and stick with hard.

If you're still with the original STW, ensure you install v1.12 patch and try the hard difficulty.

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Originally Posted by critviz

but I found it annoying that I had to build castles and all that stuff for each territory I conquer.

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That's how the game works, later games are much heavier on the micromanagement, resource management and RTS style base building, etc - so if you think that's a bit much then maybe avoid the later games... For most provinces which you conquer, you should only need the minimum watchtowers, castle and farmland improvements (if the base farm income warrants it). You don't need to build every kind of building in every province. Later on you may want to build trading posts and churches in those provinces, more on that below.

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Originally Posted by critviz

What is the advantages of Christianity?? Is it worth it? I really like a combination of cavalry and archers.

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There are two main advantages, namely: Wealth and guns. There are other advantages also in that being a different religion to your rival clans makes your territory harder to conquer. The morale penalty when fighting Warrior Monks is apparently also negated for Christian troops (though I've never really noticed this myself).

Adopting the Arquebus/Musket does not make archery obsolete. The Arquebus' main advantage is that it demoralises the enemy and can cause a mass rout. It's also devastating if used correctly. If you just take it into battle and expect it to point, shoot and win a battle you will be very disappointed. Guns and their tactical usage are a whole new topic of debate however. If you want to learn how to use them effectively have a search through this forum's archives. Personally I favour the cavalry/yari/guns approach to warfare above all else in STW.

To switch your clan to Christianity you must accept the offer of the Portuguese when they arrive (evidenced by the ship which will appear on the strategy map and begin traversing the coast). From this point onward you will be able to build (Portuguese) Trading Posts, Churches and train Christian Emissaries (Priests) and your Daimyo will become a Christian. The presence of Priests and Churches in your provinces or in your rivals' provinces serves to convert the population to Christianity. Once you have built a certain number of Churches (forgot how many) you will be able to build the Cathedral which will then produce an income from every Church in Japan (including those in rival clan territory). Combined with the trading post income and later on the Dutch trading post income, we are talking serious koku...

The downside to converting is that you will be unable to build Buddhist temples without losing your Christian status.

Buddhist Temples and Buddhist Emissaries also propagate Buddhism, so if you have them in your provinces they are reversing conversion...

For examples of the ridiculous amount of koku you can make through conversion have a look at these:

Christian Hojo campaign: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...hp?130517-Hojo

Christian Takeda campaign (finishes post #16) https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...1219-Decisions

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Originally Posted by critviz

BTW how do I build a trading post??

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There are two types of trading posts. Portuguese and Dutch, with the former being available first. In order to build Portuguese trading posts you must first accept the offer of the Portuguese (which means accepting Christianity) and to build the Dutch trading posts you need to accept the Dutch offer (no strings attached). You also need to satisfy the build requirements: port, etc (see tech tree).

Sorry about having so many questions...You can tell I'm a noob. But where can I find the STW tech tree?? That really looks useful. I found the campaign pretty easy so I'm guessing that I was playing the easiest available. I guess that may Christianity is worth the trouble after all if it brings you more Koku (don't know why that name makes me laugh...) I was just wondering that if I have the bare minimum in all my provinces, won't that mean that training units and taking them to battle will take longer?? Whats the strategy with that because it took me a while to get cavalry and I never felt the glory of having guns. BTW I am guessing that I'm just going to have to get along with the micromanagement then and that's not going to disappear ever but I dont remember being that complicated with MTW in fact when you conquered a province all the buildings that the other kingdom had weren't destroy which makes me think that micromanagements isn't that big of a deal...

The heir production question seems to have got lost along the way. When you get your heirs varies from faction to faction and is hard coded. AFAIK there is nothing you can do about it.

To make money out of churches, I think you need to build 6 churches, and then upgrade one to a cathedral. IIRC you actually get a fixed income for your cathedral, not a certain amount for each church in the game, but I'm not sure of this.

It would be useful to know what version of STW you are using because if you have Mongol invasion it makes a big difference, even if you are not playing the Mongol campaign. This is because 1: building costs are much cheaper, which makes building and teching up a more attractive option and 2: guns are much more effective, making conversion to Christianity a more attractive proposition.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with not building anything at all in some of your provinces. You don't need to (and much of the time can't afford to) train troops in all your provinces and economic upgrades are not always worth it.

I forgot about the tech tree question. You might be able to find it on your disk. You can also try here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...169&linkid=877

I don't know what Caravel means by saying that firearms make the archer units obsolete. Guns units are almost worthless in bad weather, so you might as well keep around any old archer units you have for rainy weather. Also the cavalry archers will always be faster than your arquebus/musket units. Besides, cavalry archers are better than the gun units at countering enemy missle fire provided that 1: you make your cav archer attack the missle unit hand to hand (don't even bother trying to missle duel) 2: the enemy missle units are not protected by other units and 3: there are not enough enemy missle units to mess up your horse cavalry by massed fire.

Could you clarify your point, please, Caravel?

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Originally Posted by Brandy Blue

I don't know what Caravel means by saying that firearms make the archer units obsolete.

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There is most certainly a "not" missing from that sentence in my last post... Guns certainly do not make archery obsolete in STW.

Typos certain do lead to misleading posts - apologies for that.

My point was in response to critviz posting

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Originally Posted by critviz

I really like a combination of cavalry and archers.

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Which gives the impression that one needs to give up archery in order to start using guns - which is not the case.

What I meant with I liking cavalry and archers is that I like an army with both of them in it. As in having 2 or 3 archery units and 3 or 4 Cavalry to reinforce my usual army of regular units. The thing is that getting cavalry took some time and it took me for ever to get it from one side of the map to the other because I didnt have the necessary buildings to make them closer to the "battlefront" so that was very annoying.

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Originally Posted by caravel

There is most certainly a "not" missing from that sentence in my last post...

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:)


@ Critviz:

If you don't like your troops taking forever to cross Japan, you can invest in a couple of ports, one near the place you raise the troops and the other nearer to the front. Unlike, MTW, troops move from port to port in the same way that agents do. The only exception is that you cannot move troops to a port that is under the control of a rival faction unless one of your units has been there before. However, you can always send an agent there on one turn, and then send your troops by sea the next turn. No ships are necessary (or available, for that matter.)

Actually, transport by sea can be an exploit, if used to penetrate poorly defended behind the line enemy provinces, because the AI rarely if ever does this, and it gives the player a huge advantage. However, it can also be used to deal with the "Hojo hoard" problem.

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To make money out of churches, I think you need to build 6 churches, and then upgrade one to a cathedral. IIRC you actually get a fixed income for your cathedral, not a certain amount for each church in the game, but I'm not sure of this.

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You don't upgrade a church to a cathedral...you build one. You get 200 koku for every church in your domain. I've never checked to see if you get income from all churches, even those not your own, as Caravel suggested.

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Besides, cavalry archers are better than the gun units at countering enemy missle fire

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I'd have to disagree with this as far as muskets are concerned. The arquebus, yes perhaps, but the musket will devastate enemy archers provided that the archers aren't on high ground. H to H, yes CA's are far better at routing enemy archers as teppo are very weak in melee.

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I didnt have the necessary buildings to make them closer to the "battlefront" so that was very annoying.

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As BB has stated, ports are the way to go to get troops transferred quickly to the front. You have to plan carefully for their placement as they take 7 seasons to build and the front may move quickly making a port currently under construction less valuable.

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BTW I am guessing that I'm just going to have to get along with the micromanagement then and that's not going to disappear ever but I dont remember being that complicated with MTW in fact when you conquered a province all the buildings that the other kingdom had weren't destroy which makes me think that micromanagements isn't that big of a deal...

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Micromanagement is rather easy in STW as compared to TW games from RTW onwards. You don't have culture penalties or distance-to-capital issues (although you need to be careful not to have your Daimyo wandering off to a far edge of your empire); you don't have to deal with the ubiquitous squalor issue; population loyalty is much easier to maintain; sea trade is a fixed amount for each port and/or trading post; and you don't have to deal with the rather overdone traits system.

Several comments about developing infrastructure:

Don't invest in improved farmland in every province you have. A good rule of thumb is that any province with less than 200 koku base farm income isn't worth a single upgrade. If you do the math, it takes over 20 years (not seasons!) to regain just the initial outlay on a 200 koku province. Hardly worth it. Provinces in the 200-300 koku range might get a single upgrade, but no more. Provinces in the 300-499 range might get a second upgrade, and any province with over 500 koku base farm income should get all three upgrades.

Copper mines might deserve an upgrade if you have koku to spare; silver and gold mines should always get upgraded.

Don't build every kind of dojo in every province. Have one province turning out Yari Samurai and another Archers, for instance. Later, when you have more koku at your disposal, you could fill in multiple dojos so that you can produce the same unit in more than one province. Take advantage of provincial bonuses. Examples would be the ashigaru bonus in Tosa and Owari, the cavalry bonus in Shinano, monk bonus in Ise or Kaga, or the bonus to any unit trained in Yamashiro, military or strategic.

Pay attention to provinces that have iron sands, as you can build an armory in those areas. Certain provinces also have reduced costs for building a port.

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I guess that may Christianity is worth the trouble after all if it brings you more Koku

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I wouldn't make the conversion JUST for the koku, although that certainly can be worth it if you aren't playing as Mori. THIS is another good reason for converting:

Notice what my muskets are doing to those poor Takeda Cav Archers in the middle screen...

https://imgcash2.imageshack.us/Himg3...=640&ysize=480

Conclusion of the battle....most of the dead you see littering the field are Takeda and Imagawa. Also note the # of kills by my muskets...and this is with tweaking their stats downwards (WE edition) more in line with the original release.

https://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg5...=640&ysize=480

And there is no equal, IMHO, to muskets in bridge defense:

http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/Himg51...=640&ysize=480

https://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg1...=640&ysize=480



There are many more finer details once you get the basics down, so don't hesitate to ask.

I've also heard about retraining units and bribes. I know how to bribe an army in MTW but have no idea how to do it. I know that you guys where asking what version of the game I'm using and I believe it's there very first one. It's not the gold one or the MI but just the old regular one.

I would also like to thank you guys (who I've notice are part of the HoF)for taking the time to answer this noob's questions on this awesome game!

I'm really getting excited to start a new campaign, any comments on what clan to pick??

I don't think you can do bribes with the original game.

Well, I ain't and exhalted HoF guy myself, but I've always been glad to help and glad to learn. Its a great community that way, and it seems like yesterday when I was a delighted STW noob (I too started with MTW and worked backward to STW), grateful to the experts who gently took me by the hand.

@ Reluctant Samurai:

1: thank you for corrections concerning koku and cathedrals/churches.

2: IIRC, you cannot build a cathedral in a province without a church, and the church disappears when the cathedral is finished. Sounds like an upgrade to me. However, I will check next time I turn Christian in case my memory is wrong.

3: I never suggested using horse archers for a missle duel against enemy missle units. If you look at the whole sentence instead of just the part you quoted, you will see that I suggested using horse archers to melee enemy missle units, under certain circumstances. Same thing you suggested.

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Originally Posted by critviz

I know that you guys where asking what version of the game I'm using and I believe it's there very first one. It's not the gold one or the MI but just the old regular one.

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In that case I suggest you be extra careful with your koku, unless you are rolling in money. Buildings are very expensive and cut into your troop budget, so you must pick and choose your buildings carefully. Also, you will find your gun units do not perform as well as some other peoples' do, (people with Mongol Invasion, that is)

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Originally Posted by critviz

I'm really getting excited to start a new campaign, any comments on what clan to pick??

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Well, a lot of people would disagree with me but I like the Shimazu (green guys) best. They were the first clan I played so there is a big sentimental factor in my decision. Also, their discount units (no dachi) is really cool. Its far from the best unit in the game of course (Warrior Monks do much the same job way better), but I think the No Dachis just look cool. The drawback is that the Shimazu are just too easy, once you get the hang of them.

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Originally Posted by Brandy Blue

2: IIRC, you cannot build a cathedral in a province without a church, and the church disappears when the cathedral is finished. Sounds like an upgrade to me. However, I will check next time I turn Christian in case my memory is wrong.

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The Chuch and Cathedral:
https://img820.imageshack.us/img820/...ipboard04p.jpg

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any comments on what clan to pick

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You said earlier that you like archers and cavalry. I'd start with Uesugi. You get a reduced cost for training archers, you have some very rich provinces to start with, and you have close proximity to Shinano (you start with Shinano in one of the different starting dates...1550?)...the premier province for training cavalry. Being at the far northern edge of Japan, it's similar to Shimazu at the south end...no enemies at your back.

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If you look at the whole sentence instead of just the part you quoted, you will see that I suggested using horse archers to melee enemy missle units, under certain circumstances.

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No offense intended. And I agreed with you on getting CA's into melee with foot archers...under certain conditions. However, I duel my CA's with foot archers all the time and come out pretty well. If I have a height advantage I take a page from the AI...form them into 3 or 4 lines and they work similar to the rolling fire you get from teppo in 3 lines.

@ Caravel

Thanx for the clarification....that's how I remember it working!

I did use Uesugi (blue clan right?) on the last campaign , and it seem pretty easy to me... so I wanted something more challenging. I guess I'll have to go with Shimazu this time and conquer Japan from the other end! I'll try to post some other questions I have as I go and try to keep you updated. BTW how do take does nice screen shot??

@ Caravel: Thanks for clearing up the church/cathedral issue. Reluctant Samurai got it right.

@ Reluctant Samurai: No offense taken. Yes, you could use horse archers to missle duel foot archers if you get an advantage, I agree.

@ Critviz: Since you're new, maybe someone should point out the difference between shinobi and MTW's spies. Shinobi are easer to tech to (the tea house can be built at a small castle, I think) cheaper (100 koku, not 200 gold) and most importantly, they stack. What I mean is that if you have more than one MTW spy in a province, then only the one with the highest valor effects happiness. But every single shinobi in a province inproves happiness (or lowers it, if the province belongs to another faction). This effects strategy as follows:

1: In MTW, watch towers and boarder forts are good investments. In STW, its much cheaper to guard your boarders (including ports) against enemy agents and/or improve loyalty in unhappy provinces with shinobis.

2: When you are advancing against the enemy you do not want your army to get bogged down occupying recently captured provinces. You might want to invest in a small team of shinobis to follow behind your army and keep the new provinces happy

3: Because their unhappiness effect stacks in enemy provinces, a team of, say, 8-10 shinobi can easily provoke rebellions in enemy provinces unless there is a large army present. Also, each shinobi present will get experience and so you can valor up your team of agitators pretty quickly. You can also paralyse an enemy stack by putting enough shinobis in its province to almost bring loyalty below 100%. The AI will not want to pull any troops out of the province in case a rebellion occurs, so the stack will probably not move.

The biggest problem with shinobi is that they are too good and can become an exploit rather easily.

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Originally Posted by critviz

... so I wanted something more challenging.

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In that case Oda might be better than Shimazu.

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Originally Posted by Brandy Blue

In that case Oda might be better than Shimazu.

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Not necessarily. Given the clan's various...challenges, playing as the Oda might be too steep a jump in difficulty.

Shimazu should be challenging enough, as he'll still have to face the (usually) inevitable Hojo/Uesugi horde.

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something more challenging.

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You can always crank up the difficulty setting........

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Yes, you could use horse archers to missle duel foot archers if you get an advantage, I agree.

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This got me to thinking, so I looked up the stats (WE edition, patched) in the projectiles.txt file. Both SA & CA have the same range, rof, power, reload time.....everything is the same except for accuracy. It's 0.5 for SA, and 0.4 for CA.

Now I've never tested this, but I believe the 0.4 mark for the CA is based on their default formation which is square. On a zoomed-in view you can see that many of your men are not firing or even reloading...inefficient. On a change to 3 or 4 lines, you see the same effect as foot archers in three lines....front line fires, then the second, while the back row reloads and so on. Never tested this in custom battles, so I can't say it's true......

But the AI almost always uses them in lines rather than square, and indeed they can wreak havoc that way, so I constantly shift my own CA's formation depending on what they're doing.

I'm playing on normal instead of easy. I have started a campaign with Shimazu and so far I have lost 2 of my original territories but have started an "army" of shinobi but i'm hoping that my Northern neighbors don't decide to attack me again because I'm just starting so building constructions which means I'm low on Koku...

I was also wondering what people mean when they say they retrain a unit?

There are two reasons for retraining: a unit that has taken battle casualties can be brought to full strength by putting them into a castle and into the unit training queue; a unit that qualifies for a weapon or armor upgrade can also be put into a castle training queue.

Of note on the second reason, armor/weapon upgrades...even if the province does not have the capability to train the unit in question (for example, you have no Buddhist temple for training Warrior Monks) but you have either a swordsmith or an armory or both, then in the above example the WM unit would receive the armor/weapon upgrade (but would not get replacements if it has taken casualties).

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Originally Posted by critviz

but i'm hoping that my Northern neighbors don't decide to attack me again because I'm just starting so building constructions which means I'm low on Koku...

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You can move some shinobis into any province that your opponent is likely to attack from. The IT will react to the drop in loyalty by not attacking, or at least by sending fewer troops, because it will need troops to garrison the province and prevent rebellions. The drawback is that boarder forts (not watchtowers ) will wipe out your shinobis easily and enemy shinobis and ninjas are a real threat, but your shinobis are unlikely to run into much like that early on.

Don't allow your shinobi build up to starve your troop training. Sorry if I oversold you on shinobis, but they are a great supplement to your armies, not an instead-of-your-armies. You should not be spending koku on them IMO if you don't have enough troops to hold onto your land and start taking down your northern neighbor, but since you have them you might as well use them.

A good Shimazu starting plan is to raise troops with the buildings you have because IIRC you can make yari samurai and archers right at the start and thats all the infantry you need at the start. You might use some yari ashigaru for garrision purposes, or even a unit or two in battle, because they are so cheap, but they rout easily so mostly depend on your samurai. Your daimyo provides all the cavalry you need at this point so long as you are careful not to get him killed. Just remember that, unlike MTW, it is quite hard for a unit to disengage from melee, so once you have committed him (except to chasing routers or to missle units - so long as the missle units skirmish away) it is hard to get him out - its likely to be win or die.

You can rush that northern neighbor pretty early and capture first his river province then his port province, then his last province on the island. That will prevent him from bringing in reinforcements from his other piece of land elsewhere in Japan. You should probably set taxes as low as possible so that your troops will not be tied down as garrisons. Shimazu are a natural rush faction, not a turtle faction. You will depend on your starting treasury and money from conquering provinces to start with, rather than on your pitiful farm income. Later you can invest money to build ports, and even trading posts and churches and a cathedral if you go Christian. Right at the start, Shimazu should depend on conquest to increase their income.

Don't forget to leave a unit to protect from invasion from the rebel island and another to protect from the Mori. At first a simple yari ashigaru each will probably do the trick, and if you attack your northern neighbor fast and hard enough you will not need any more than that until after you have control of your whole island and have leisure to protect against both rebels and Mori.

Your first big decision will come after you liberate Kyushu from the Imagawa. Will you push up through southern Honshu and Mori, or do you land on Shikoku and attempt a quick strike to some of the rich lands of Central Japan?

Mori lands are poor...Aki is the only jewel to be had for a long way up the continent. It has a gold mine, iron sands, and fairly rich farmland. The island of Shikoku itself isn't all that rich either, but more so than southern Honshu, and it leads directly to some very rich provinces in central Japan.

Of course one can always do both:laugh4:

So how I was able to get a hold of Awa which hasn't being attacked at all! My enemy is weak but has a large army in Rungo (I think that's the name) Which I'm afraid he will attack (Some Shinobi have being telling me that for a while). My "capital city" is the only one capable to produce an army. I have used my shinobi to start revolutions everywhere which is working on my favor. But I'm being able to get rid of that large army.

I guess I'm just going to have get a big army and try to develop some No Dachi in Satsuma (I got to start memorizing the name of my provinces) because of the discount. I don't know if I'm going to have to re start the campaign because its going pretty bad. Most of my experience Shinobi are getting killed and I don't think that I got a good enough army if another clan decides to attack.

How do I take a screen shot of the game?? I would love to post some pics.

You will not be able to build a sword dojo or train No Dachi until you get the legendary swordsman event. I forget what triggers that exactly. One of your men (not a whole unit) has to reach valor 3 or something like that? Anyway, the point is, you will not be able to train No Dachi without fighting battles, because otherwise you will never trigger the legendary swordsman event.

I got a legendary swords man already or I wouldn't be planning to train some. Im not that big of a noob!! gosh! JK :yes: