Considering Ptolomai campaign at some point

I've got several other campaigns going at the moment, so this will have to wait, but I'm considering a go at Ptolomai at some point. The reason (so you know what's motivating me) is that I'd like to give one of these successor states a go, but the Selucids are always the big bad guy in all my campaigns (ha) so I'd rather play someone "not them."

I'd like to know the pros and cons of these guys, comparing them with the Selucids or Macadonia or a "similar" faction (don't know if the Epirotes would qualify). My guess is that there is a rather large core of troop types that are in common with all these successor states (levy pikes etc), and perhaps some faction specific troops?

The main question I have is whether the Ptolemai are "suckier" from a troop aspect (troop types, faction-specific/exclusive troops), or lack stuff the others get - say heavy cavalry or cataphracts or whatever. If they are lacking in some area, is it made up in another area?

I guess a final question would be for you to rate this campaign in terms of being "interesting" or not.

Thanks.

I have never played the Ptolemioi and it wouldn't surprise me if many others have not as well considering they always seem to dominate the AS in my experience and well, they are comparatively easy to play. However, I can say this about their troops from fighting them in campaign but also from multiplayer experiences. Recruitment is a little more difficult for them since they use Machimoi Phalangites as their levy and these are only available in Egypt, not sure about the Levant. Otherwise their armies are similar to AS with three exceptions: far different auxiliaries based on their starting regions, lack of superheavy cavalry, and different elites. The Basilikon Agema I actually prefer to the typical Hellenistic elites because they have an AP secondary attack but you will regret the fact that they are only retrainable in Egypt. Those missions to Macedonia and Babylon won't be nearly as fruitful unit-wise for the Ptollies as they might for other Hellenic factions. You will also lean heavily on Galatikoi Klerouchoi for good reason. They are one of the best heavy infantry units in the game; basically Neitos on steroids. Ptollie cavalry is good but not as good as AS. Comparative to Makedonia and Epeiros I would say as their Agema cavalry is relatively useful but again limited recruitment-wise. This being said, Ptollies can get decent auxiliaries like Iudioi, Machimoi, and Ethiopian Archers. Just don't expect the dominant auxiliaries that the AS gets access to such as Dahae horse archers or Guild Warriors.

i dont think ptolemy is easier on harder difficulties. I always thought ptolemies would be easier than AS but when i played H/M i had the worst time and quit in 250s. The AS always bribes side and sidon and takes tarsus. its impossible to rush antioch because theres this rebel stack lead by a general from kyrene who beseiges parantion and several rebel half stacks who attack dispoles and memphis so it takes 4 years to deal with all of that and by that time they've taken side, sidon and tarsus which means you need to attack cyrene for more income and then carthage comes along

oh and also at that point the AS becomes grey death and sends stacks of better quality phalanxes which your early cavalry dont have much effect on

Tarsus and side are dead meat anyway. Seleucids will take the anyway. Now you will want to take out Antioch as quickly as possible, as the seleucids can recruit pezhetairoi from start there.

To the OP, why don't you try Bactria, they mostly have the same unit roster as the seleucids and I found them a lot of fun to play.

Ptolemaioi have quite a secured base, once you control the whole north-east Africa...
There are scripted invasions at Kyrene by the Karthadastim and the Seleukidai will knock on your door constantly, with the Sabyn joining the party later on...
In overall they are a very rich faction with decent units, but their gov expansion is quite limited compared to other Epigonoi...
But they all share culture, so you could let your enemies build up their infrastructures while you conquer in Africa (that's what I did)...

In the end, like all factions, they have their own flavour and make an interesting game...
It's a dealer's choice though, if you don't like them, you can always change :)

even after i conquer all of eastern africa including meroe and nubia im still short of cash and the AS conquer bostra so they can bypass jerusalem and sneak an army into alexandria

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Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin

I have never played the Ptolemioi and it wouldn't surprise me if many others have not as well considering they always seem to dominate the AS in my experience and well, they are comparatively easy to play. However, I can say this about their troops from fighting them in campaign but also from multiplayer experiences. Recruitment is a little more difficult for them since they use Machimoi Phalangites as their levy and these are only available in Egypt, not sure about the Levant. Otherwise their armies are similar to AS with three exceptions: far different auxiliaries based on their starting regions, lack of superheavy cavalry, and different elites. The Basilikon Agema I actually prefer to the typical Hellenistic elites because they have an AP secondary attack but you will regret the fact that they are only retrainable in Egypt. Those missions to Macedonia and Babylon won't be nearly as fruitful unit-wise for the Ptollies as they might for other Hellenic factions. You will also lean heavily on Galatikoi Klerouchoi for good reason. They are one of the best heavy infantry units in the game; basically Neitos on steroids. Ptollie cavalry is good but not as good as AS. Comparative to Makedonia and Epeiros I would say as their Agema cavalry is relatively useful but again limited recruitment-wise. This being said, Ptollies can get decent auxiliaries like Iudioi, Machimoi, and Ethiopian Archers. Just don't expect the dominant auxiliaries that the AS gets access to such as Dahae horse archers or Guild Warriors.

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Hmmm, sounding less and less like my cup of tea. For one thing, I certainly don't want an easy campaign (one of my current ones is Koinon Hellenon). Also, doesn't seem like the units are interesting enough, the cavalry seems lacking, etc.

How about Baktria? Would you recommend them? I'm guessing they are kinda-sorta successor, but probably have some twists like very heavy cavalry, elephants, and a challenge perhaps?

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Originally Posted by rickinator9

To the OP, why don't you try Bactria, they mostly have the same unit roster as the seleucids and I found them a lot of fun to play.

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Ah, didn't see this the first time, but it seems like my thoughts exactly! (see above)

Baktria are a bit more challengeing, they have a great unit roster which also includes alot of "odd" units, they don't have Elite phalanxes tho. "downside" is that they have quite annoying neighbors - the AS and the Saka rauka, the Parthians could be annoying but they seldom are.

The reason for Ptolemies being considered easier(than the Seleucids) is quite simple: they have less and less dangerous enemies, that do not directly threaten their coreland. The Arche has to cope with Hay, Pahlava, Balkh, Ptolemies and pontos from the beginning and Koinon Hellenon, saba and Saka rauka once they get past initial problems. the Ptolies actually have direct acces to the Seleucid core lands, in Syria and mesopotamia. The only initial enemy of the Ptolemies is the Empire, who don't threaten egypt but the levant and Asia minor. Later on conflicts with Saba and Karchedon are likely but the Carthagians are far away and the Sabeans, well they have skirmishers.
And about the roster, it's somewhat a toned down AS roster, apart from galatians there is not much new to find but you initial possibilities are just as good. The AoR of most units is worse than their regular counterparts, which really does hurt expansion. The Pharaos may not be able to train Cataphracts, but at least they get the Hellenic heavy lancer which many people prefer over actual cataphracts and the semi hellenic light lancer which is only availible there and in Illyria.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

How about Baktria? Would you recommend them? I'm guessing they are kinda-sorta successor, but probably have some twists like very heavy cavalry, elephants, and a challenge perhaps?

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A Baktrian campaign can be very easy (after a challenging start) or very hard, depending on your luck and your expansion policy.
Unit wise, they're different from other Hellenistic factions in that they
- have a stronger Iranian and Indian component (also mixed ethnicity units)
- are the only Hellenistic faction with factional horse archers (which are also well armoured and carry an AP sword, making them a unique unit in EB)
- are more heavily (hurr derp) involved with cataphracts and other armoured cavalry, their reformed bodyguard being the best armoured unit in the game and arguably the toughest bodyguard unit
- possess no elite phalanx unit, their best phalangitai being Pezhetairoi (which are still quite powerful). They get a bunch of funny hoplite variants instead.
Also two versions of Peltastai, the regular one and one (Indohellenikoi) with a spear. And easy access to Elephants and other Indian stuff... once you get past some very nasty Eleutheroi garrisons.

If you want to make insane heavy metal armies, Baktria is probably a good choice.

Don't listen to the haters =)
Ptolomies are actually quite fun. They are a successor state but with just that hint of variety to make them fun. In terms of auxillaries they have access nearby to nubian and ethiopian units of varying types (spears and bows). The saba are just across the pond and the seleucid empire shares the same barracks as you so expansion in that direction can be quite nice in terms of seeing your units available.

The ptolomies main weakness of course is recruitment. And if you wait until EB2 comes out I expect that weakness will double due to the speed of replenishment of units. In hostory they needed troops so badly and the natives were so unreliable that they resorted to importing and settling galatians in the Fayuum depression. This creates an interesting game in that you can very easily have celtic components, wild native nubian components and phalanx component armies.

Their main strength is both their easily defensible position and sickenly wealthy northern cities.

IIRC the Ptolies can also train African Bush Elephants. They're the least reliable unit in the game (pitiful morale), but also the physically most powerful one (together with Indian Cataphract Elephants, who have superior armour and morale though). Certainly a hilarious and very challenging unit which I've had mixed success with when playing Saba (with Saba, they're actually less funny because Saba can't afford to lose battles). You can either use them as an absurdly expensive missile platform or as a mobile ram that might or might not end up as a suicide bomber. With good support they can be very effective though.

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

Baktria are a bit more challengeing...

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"Challenging" is my middle name. That's what I like. I blow through most of these campaigns so fast on VH it's not even funny.

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If you want to make insane heavy metal armies, Baktria is probably a good choice.

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Heavy metal is my other middle name :-) Both music variety and army variety.

@whoever was talking about bush elephants, I put those to great use in my Carthage campaign.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

"Challenging" is my middle name.

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Danger is my middle name...

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

Heavy metal is my other middle name :-) Both music variety and army variety.

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You should join the EB Metal Heads group.

If you like a challenge and metal try out Hai. They get cataphracts and are much more of a challenge then any Hellenistic faction.

what about their economy?? ptolemies have no mines unless they spend time going into ethiopia. im having financial difficulties form just supporting an army of levies and a half stack in cyrene against carthage

I think one of the Nile regions gets mines, Memphis or the settlement south perhaps? Also you get crazy tax income and trade income from Alexandria and the Eastern Mediterranean is incredibly profitable. I recommend attacking Rhodes early and then re-allying with the KH.

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Originally Posted by stratigos vasilios

Danger is my middle name...

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Frederick is my middle name. Not quite so daring as 'Danger' or 'Challenging' but far more useful when applying for a job. =)

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Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin

I think one of the Nile regions gets mines, Memphis or the settlement south perhaps? Also you get crazy tax income and trade income from Alexandria and the Eastern Mediterranean is incredibly profitable. I recommend attacking Rhodes early and then re-allying with the KH.

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you dont get trade income cause the trade routes from alexandria go to sidon and antioch which the seleucids control (sidon gets bribed)

Trade routes are not fixed. They will go between whatever coastal cities they can find that are eligible. If need be just get trade rights with the Macedonian and KH. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by seleucid empire

you dont get trade income cause the trade routes from alexandria go to sidon and antioch which the seleucids control (sidon gets bribed)

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I found making peace with the Seleucids very early on in the campaign can be just as profitable as taking towns from them, since Ptolemies don't need a huge army if they are not at war with Seleukia. Giving me time to build up my towns. I took Damascus very early, and then made peace for a while, waiting until they attack me again.

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

I found making peace with the Seleucids very early on in the campaign can be just as profitable as taking towns from them, since Ptolemies don't need a huge army if they are not at war with Seleukia. Giving me time to build up my towns. I took Damascus very early, and then made peace for a while, waiting until they attack me again.

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Force diplomacy?

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Originally Posted by Blxz

Force diplomacy?

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Yes, usually. I try to recreate the history of the numerous Syrian Wars and have the wars ending on the historical dates. I like lots of short wars with the AI, instead of one long war.

i really dont like using fd, it tempts me to cheat and make parthians my protectorates. i used to use it on carthage cause i saw no reason that they should attack cyrene when they have 4 provinces in span and own all of sicily. and also i just build 8 untis of pandopti phalanx and autocalc when they attack cyrene. they are now gold chevroned and have beaten about 20 full stacks of carthage. the carthage ai is srsly retarded

I think using FD is best used as a reasonable, sensible trade-off. I get peace with the AI whenever I want, but in return, I don't blitz or destroy them. So although as Ptolemies I get peace with Seleucia using FD, in return, I don't take Antioch off them. Which for Seleucid AI is a big advantage, since that is a rich city with excellent recruitment.

I don't use FD as a means of saving myself when the AI is about to wipe me out - that's cheating. Only strong factions are entitled to have good diplomatic outcomes - the weak must suffer.

I've never tried making an AI faction a protectorate - but if I did, I would then have only minimal garrisons on its borders, so that the AI would be tempted to betray me in the future.

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Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin

I have never played the Ptolemioi and it wouldn't surprise me if many others have not as well considering they always seem to dominate the AS in my experience and well, they are comparatively easy to play. However, I can say this about their troops from fighting them in campaign but also from multiplayer experiences. Recruitment is a little more difficult for them since they use Machimoi Phalangites as their levy and these are only available in Egypt, not sure about the Levant. Otherwise their armies are similar to AS with three exceptions: far different auxiliaries based on their starting regions, lack of superheavy cavalry, and different elites. The Basilikon Agema I actually prefer to the typical Hellenistic elites because they have an AP secondary attack but you will regret the fact that they are only retrainable in Egypt. Those missions to Macedonia and Babylon won't be nearly as fruitful unit-wise for the Ptollies as they might for other Hellenic factions. You will also lean heavily on Galatikoi Klerouchoi for good reason. They are one of the best heavy infantry units in the game; basically Neitos on steroids. Ptollie cavalry is good but not as good as AS. Comparative to Makedonia and Epeiros I would say as their Agema cavalry is relatively useful but again limited recruitment-wise. This being said, Ptollies can get decent auxiliaries like Iudioi, Machimoi, and Ethiopian Archers. Just don't expect the dominant auxiliaries that the AS gets access to such as Dahae horse archers or Guild Warriors.

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With all due respect to Sir Robin I think you should be careful in taking the advice of someone who freely admits he has never actually played the Ptolomaioi. I have played them a number of times and I feel that they are certainly worth considering. However, before looking at the strategic aspects, Sir Robin makes some good points about Ptolomaioi units and I would like to add my halfpenny worth to that first.

The Ptolomaioi are of course Diadochi and therefore their unit list has all the usual suspects of Hellenic troops plus Makadonian style phalangists but there are some interesting variations, and not just in elites. So that you get Red Sea Hoplites as well as Galatian Heavy Swordsmen and Native Egyptian Cavalry, which are pretty good. The Machimoi Phalangites and the Ptolomaic Elite Phalanxes can indeed only be recruited in Egypt, but so what? Isn't that realistic? When playing any of the Diadochi the core of my "everyday" armies are largely Klerouchoi Phalangitai and Thorakitai anyway and the Ptolomaioi can recruit these as widely as anyone else. As regards heavy cavalry you do get Ptolomaic Heavy Cavalry which although not quite as good as Lonchophoroi Hippies are pretty good and do look cool. The Ptolomaic Royal Guard are an excellent Hoplite like unit. Finally, access to Ethiopia and Arabia allows for some very interesting and useful auxiliaries plus elephants.

Strategically the Ptolomaioi are quite well placed. They have a rich and secure base in the Nile Valley and a number of rebel settlements close by ripe for conquest. However, war with the AS is almost inevitable (almost, but see below!) and Side and Tarsos are dead meat as a result. Carthage will fall out with you over Kyrene at some point too. The war with the AS can be fun and is certainly demanding, depending on the level you play on. Capturing Antiocheia early is a given I believe and the real problem then becomes the inability to end the war (without Forced Diplomacy) anywhere short of complete conquest of the AS. In most of my campaigns I have ended up being drawn further and further into the AS and not necessarily in directions I would have chosen to go. Fighting the same types of troops over and over again can get a bit tedious too.

In my latest campaign I decided to have a change. I retrenched at the outset (aka retreated!), allowing Side and Tarsos to go and gave both Sidon and Hierosolyma to Carthage, which they eventually accepted. Result - no border with the AS, and peace! I then concentrated on expanding to the south, the rebel elephants in Ethiopia were great fun to fight, Akontistai proving to be useful after all! Then I invaded Arabia, in the process finding out you cannot build ships in any of your Red Sea ports but the Nile Canal allows ships to move down from the Med. Its now 229BC, I am finally at war with Carthage and on my way to take Lepki, and still at peace with the AS. My plan is to conquer Arabia and then sail to India eventually taking on the AS through Persia. I am fighting a lot of different troop types and also getting access to new auxiliaries. As a Diadochi its good to be fighting Carthage for a change and I am also looking forward to India as I had great fun there in a previous Baktria campaign.

My advice would be to give the Ptolomaioi a go, they have everything a Diadochi has to offer plus some interesting variations in units and geography and some different enemies.

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Originally Posted by Sapper

My plan is to conquer Arabia and then sail to India eventually taking on the AS through Persia. I am fighting a lot of different troop types and also getting access to new auxiliaries. As a Diadochi its good to be fighting Carthage for a change and I am also looking forward to India as I had great fun there in a previous Baktria campaign.

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Ptolemaioi recruitment options in India are not nearly as good as those of the AS, Saka, Baktria, Pahlava, or Saba, though.

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You should join the EB Metal Heads group.

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We'll do! Thanks!

So I started a Baktria campaign. Took a look around the map, and any neutral cities around just seemed way too heavily-garrisoned and too far away to go that route. So I split my starting army up into two groups. Sent one north and took two Selucid cities there (the ones that look like Saka tribal cities) and one south and took about 3 Selucid cities all in a line.

That's about all I've done so far. Am I doing this right?

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

We'll do! Thanks!

So I started a Baktria campaign. Took a look around the map, and any neutral cities around just seemed way too heavily-garrisoned and too far away to go that route. So I split my starting army up into two groups. Sent one north and took two Selucid cities there (the ones that look like Saka tribal cities) and one south and took about 3 Selucid cities all in a line.

That's about all I've done so far. Am I doing this right?

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Looks good to me. Baktria is one of those factions where attacking the rebels first is not optimal. You are always going to get into a war with AS so do it on your terms. My advice is to make Baktra as strong as you can, the AS will attack it at every oportunity, build mines as soon as you can too, and Kophen should be the first rebel city you take for just that purpose, and get into India because its rich. Also, plan to be fighting the AS for ever because without resorting to forced diplomacy you are doomed to do so.