Avoiding Realm Divide?

Playing my umpteenth attempt at Oda on Legendary I have managed to survive the first few turns and built up quite an empire along the south central coast of the main island.

However when I hit Realm Divide at legendary it all falls to pieces as I am attacked by samurai-heavy armies from former vassals and allies and have my trade routes blocked by enemy fleets from the far side of the map.

So other than not conquering anything (not really viable with the Oda as so many provinces are threatened from all sides) what tactics are available to put off RD?

As it is supposed to be relating to Daimyo honour as well as conquests I have been been sending out raiding armies to loot, demolish everything and then abandon enemy provinces to rebels who are typically much less a threat as either rebels or one province-clans than their current owners.

Anyone tried this and knows if it works? (yes I know I am taking a diplomacy hit but at this stage there is little point trying to maintain alliances anyway).

And does lowering Daimyo honour also have other negative effects?

There seems to be two ways. In both cases, you have to pause your expansion when your yellow fame bar is just a little short from filling all the way up to Legendary. Then:

(1) (Confirmed) Use agents to turn everything else (except Kyoto) into Rebel lands. The realm divide will still hit, but there is nobody who can turn against you.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...3&d=1329605543

OR

(2) (Unconfirmed) Wait for an AI clan to take out the Ashikaga Shogunate first. The Realm Divide will not trigger. But you might have to wait a long time (longer than the time required to turn everything else rebel for sure). And you will have a very powerful foe to fight later.

I am going to try and see if I can confirm this second option here Maltz..:bow:
In my current Oda campaign I am on the cusp of RD with 20 provinces but my long standing allies the Haketayama have 13 provinces and are at war with the Ashikaga, with a large stack in Kawachi...
I will try and facilitate them in the easy taking of Kyoto and see where that leaves us..

Personally Realm divide annoys me, I think it is too restrictive on intricate strategy and taking the time to build good relationships as in the end it all counts for naught purely on province numbers..

Jacobin..I have played with a realm divide mod in the past and found it very enjoyable..Maybe give one of them a go :-)

I also read that there is a trick to make rather friendly vassals (to trade) after the Realm Divide.

Edited: I later confirmed that some statements I read is wrong (or has been patched), so following content has been edited:

Vassals made after Realm Divide are totally unaware of the Realm Divide. There are two Realm Divide triggers - when your yellow fame reaches maximum, and when you occupy Kyoto. Only make new vassals after both events trigger.

There is also a "-100 past grievance" modifier for a vassal that you helped revive. This offset the +100 military alliance modifier. Well, this is a bug! They are not supposed to hate you for reviving them.

You can ship your army to somewhere far away and start reviving clans (that have a trade port to trade with you). This also discourages your vassals from turning against you when they get their full stack - they can easily find some other enemies to fight.

I'm pretty sure I've still has post RD vassals turn on me though?! Was this due to the conditions of where they arose then, is that what you're saying? Or whether they are major or minor when the re-appear?

I have always had a soft spot for Shimazu, on account of them being the first clan I ever played on the original Shogun but rarely play them..
I find in S2 they get wiped out early the majority of the time and so I tend to bring them back when I get around to dealing with Ito..
As I am nearly always based in or around Kyoto at this time they provide an excellent and much needed stable trade partner after RD..
As far as Shimazu go I have not had them turn on me yet..
I have tried a similar thing with the Tokugawa but they are a lot less reliable, although I am reasonably sure I did have shared borders at the time of reviving them..and therefore took the diplomatic hit there..

Haketayama refuse to take Kyoto and I am one province away from RD so I am going to take Kyoto for myself and see the fun ensue from RD as I am vying for shogunism ;-)

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Originally Posted by easytarget

I'm pretty sure I've still has post RD vassals turn on me though?! Was this due to the conditions of where they arose then, is that what you're saying? Or whether they are major or minor when the re-appear?

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I guess you mean vassals that are created from a revived clan? These post-RD new vassal is just like a vassal pre-RD. If your vassal is land locked by your provinces, it is likely that the script will force them to attack you when their military is ready (a full stack, for example). If you mean an existing clan at RD which is beaten down by you and turned into a vassal, they still have the RD penalty.

As Chokosabe I triggered RD when I was in almost exactly the same position as in Maltz's map - but had the Urakami as vassals up in the NW of the main island - and they stayed loyal for a long time afterwards - possibly because they only had a couple of poor provinces and could not afford to raise a full stack?

However even though I had taken every economic upgrade available the loss of trading partners (other than the Urakami I was at war with everyone) proved crippling and I could only afford one killer stack of samurai and warrior monks - while the Uesugi and Ikko Ikki who owned the east and centre of the map allied and got together a vast horde of six or seven full or half stacks and systematically used it to besiege and starve into submission each of my fortresses while their Ninjas run riot so that I had to spend most of my money repairing acts of sabotage rather than raising new armies.

Next go I will make a point of making no vassals until after RD and then vassalise every province that's not vital.

I hope you have a save file just before triggering Realm Divide. Making an alliance with Uesugi and ask them to break up with Ikko-Ikki. This would make your life 10 times easier. Whether to make vassal or not is a minor difference compared to grand strategy. Take trading as an example, if you can remain trade with Uesugi, it would be a huge boost of your trade income. (10 provinces give about 4000 koku per turn.) Vassals are usually small. At most you can only make 1000-1500 koku from their trade and tribute combined.

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Next go I will make a point of making no vassals until after RD and then vassalise every province that's not vital.

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Yes a newly raised Vassal has just the one province and trade income from each one is very minimal..(often less than your own farm income from it would be)
I never really make vassals after RD only before as a tool to delay or stave off RD until I am in a better position..

Much better to attempt to sway another strong party to come along with you for the ride through RD..
Just before you cop RD is the time to forge these alliances to take advantage of the full new +100 for military alliance and if you have had them as trading partners for a long time that is even better as there will be substantial +'s here as well..
Throw in a declare war on one of their enemies on their behalf with no asking for money and you will get a hefty +'s for gifts and who cares about a new enemy anyway if you are just about at RD ;-)..it is grabbing this one substantial ally that counts (in your case Uesugi)
+100 is also up for grabs if you are in a position to ransom off one of your family, gives you 8 years of slowly diminishing +'s...
All of these things to me are far more important than the use of vassals...

My current Daimyo has a whole bunch of small children and I've never tried hostage exchanging so that might well resolve another problem I am having with being attacked by three big factions simultaneously (plus my only allies are the Ikko Ikki who really can't be trusted....)

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Originally Posted by Maltz

There is also a "-100 past grievance" modifier for a vassal that you helped revive. This offset the +100 military alliance modifier. Well, this is a bug! They are not supposed to hate you for reviving them. But there is one way to avoid this modifier - revive a clan that has NO land connection to your territory at the time of the revival. This way the new vassal will only have the +100 modifier, but not the -100 to offset it.

So ship your army to somewhere far away and start reviving clans (that have a trade port to trade with you). This also discourages your vassals from turning against you when they get their full stack - they can easily find some other enemies to fight.

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!!!
Can anyone confirm this? If thats the case then Vassals post-divide just got useful again! This would be huge, I cant believe I never thought of trying this.

My tips for RD are:

1. Save up a slush fund ~100,000 koku ought to do
2. Save up a couple of princesses for marriages to key clans - marry them off a couple of turns beforehand for maximum diplo++
3. Make sure your Daimyo is has high honour - this can get you +30 relations with some clans
4. Do not overlook the + diplo techs, and retainers. It all adds up.
5. Focus on a tax based economy with as many high level farms as possible running a big food surplus. Trade is for mid-game expansion and cannot be relied upon. Never let your army upkeep exceed your tax income during the mid game or you will founder post RD.
6. Form vassals after RD both to trade, and as a means to quickly pacify an unruly, or religiously different province.
7. Bomb the cr@p out of any enemies of a different religion with monks - one game I reduced Ito from having all of the southern island to two provinces with a prolonged monk/ninja campaign of rebellion/sabotage/assassination. You can do all this without actually declaring war :) Also, unlike vassals rebel provinces never backstab you and don't expand. By filling portions of the map with rebelling provinces you can pave the way for swift conquest without filling up your RD bar.
8. Economise your defenses - construct large castles at key choke points - the free garrisons there save you an enormous amount of upkeep.
9. Build a navy to cover your a$$ - Honma or somebody like them will declare war on you and dump a stack in your backfield.
10. Get a night attack general for an easy capture of Kyoto - or breaking up large enemy stacks.